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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 2716 times)
Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #30 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:26pm
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TYCapitalism wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 4:02pm:
You know if we had an actual imperialist government we could just tax the hell out of our subjects and just keep conquering nation after nation until everyone was sending us tribute.

It'd be horribly immoral, but I think the math would work.

How long do you think it would last if you could manage to get it started?

Are you thinking of a Caliphate or World Communism?

Eventually even the most powerful empire runs out of things to steal...

Edit: And they always run into opposition...
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #31 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 6:34pm
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The current East Coast hurricane looks like it will be somewhat less than a huge emergency...

How much has FEMA and various state governments spent (of taxpayers money) on this not-quite a huge emergency?

How much will taxpayers be on the hook for government subsidized insurance for spiffy expensive beach properties that will be damaged?

Wouldn't it be better if people just kept an eye on the weather and made their own decisions? (And if they had to pay the full cost of insuring their own property?)

OK, fine, change the traffic patterns so people can easily get away from the coast, thanks.

Oh, I forgot, how much tax money will go to the Army Corps of Engineers to restore the beaches that wash away from in front of expensive beach front homes and condos?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #32 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 9:37am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 6:34pm:
The current East Coast hurricane looks like it will be somewhat less than a huge emergency...

How much has FEMA and various state governments spent (of taxpayers money) on this not-quite a huge emergency?

How much will taxpayers be on the hook for government subsidized insurance for spiffy expensive beach properties that will be damaged?

Wouldn't it be better if people just kept an eye on the weather and made their own decisions? (And if they had to pay the full cost of insuring their own property?)

OK, fine, change the traffic patterns so people can easily get away from the coast, thanks.

Oh, I forgot, how much tax money will go to the Army Corps of Engineers to restore the beaches that wash away from in front of expensive beach front homes and condos?



Lots of it.  That's what happens when you grant government the power to take money by force. 

Except in those examples where it worked out really well.

Can you please name some?

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #33 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:26pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 9:37am:
Lots of it.  That's what happens when you grant government the power to take money by force. 


Actually Red, it's what happens when government usurps powers not granted to it.

FEMA waste's lots of money because FEMA exists.

Taxation for the legitimate functions of government is legal and acceptable to virtually everyone.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #34 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 3:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:26pm:
Actually Red, it's what happens when government usurps powers not granted to it.

FEMA waste's lots of money because FEMA exists.

Taxation for the legitimate functions of government is legal and acceptable to virtually everyone.


FEMA is legal and acceptable to virtually everyone. “Acceptable to virtually everyone,” is no more valid a foundation for a moral judgement than “pretty much everyone agrees.”

In fact, I’m not sure there is a difference other than your’re tired of my razzing you for saying, “pretty much everyone agrees.”
  

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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #35 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:28pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 3:02pm:
FEMA is legal and acceptable to virtually everyone.
Local communities authorize their local governments to tax them so that all the children of the community can be educated for obvious good reasons.

How does that compare at all to a federal agency that can supposedly manage emergencies through high level bureaucracies and billion dollar yearly budgets?

Where does all that money go in non-emergency years?

Lets have an accounting!
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #36 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 8:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:28pm:
Local communities authorize their local governments to tax them so that all the children of the community can be educated for obvious good reasons.

How does that compare at all to a federal agency that can supposedly manage emergencies through high level bureaucracies and billion dollar yearly budgets?


The voters voted in the lawmakers who allow it.  That's how a representative republic works.  Once you accept the principle that lawmakers in a representative republic have the right to force people to pay taxes, how much and what for are decisions for those lawmakers.

Quote:
Where does all that money go in non-emergency years?

Lets have an accounting!


You're not entitled to one, unless you vote in lawmakers who promise to have one.

Even if you do, they can change their mind and pretty much everyone agrees with that system.


  

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AlayneLeung
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #37 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 12:04pm
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I hope that persons, that are in courtroom cases, still work by having all persons tell as much pertinent facts as possible of said courtroom cases in said courtroom cases.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #38 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 1:35pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 8:17pm:
The voters voted in the lawmakers who allow it.  That's how a representative republic works.  Once you accept the principle that lawmakers in a representative republic have the right to force people to pay taxes, how much and what for are decisions for those lawmakers.
The "what for" is not an unlimited open field unless you have created a government with unlimited power.

The people who create a government have a right to know how it spends collected tax revenue, unless the government has been granted power to keep it secret.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #39 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 9:19am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 15th, 2018 at 1:35pm:
The "what for" is not an unlimited open field unless you have created a government with unlimited power.


We have. 

What power has congress ever denied itself? 

Those congressmen who allow themselves unlimited power are voted in election year after election year because we have become addicted to all that "free" stuff they buy us with "those other people's" money.

Again, that's where it starts.  The minute you decide to "grant a power" to government to steal, you have lost any moral claim to control the theft.  You had no moral right to steal, therefore no moral right to grant the power to steal. 

Not to your neighbors, your kids, you're masonic lodge or your local school board.  You grant them the power to use guns to take money and then act surprised with they take more than you expected and spend it in ways you didn't expect.

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The people who create a government have a right to know how it spends collected tax revenue, unless the government has been granted power to keep it secret.


No one alive today created any government.  All we do is perpetuate it and/or put up with it for convenience.  The worst roadblock to getting control of this government is people who claim to want to control it but make exceptions for government over-reach for things they approve of. 

My dream of a libertarian government is unlikely and I'm the first to admit it.  But your dream that the government will somehow start following your strict interpretation of the U.S. Constitution is beyond unlikely. 

When has it ever happened that a government having been authorized to rob at gunpoint stayed limited?

Name one single time.


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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