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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 2694 times)
Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #320 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:23am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 21st, 2018 at 5:14pm:
My consent cannot be granted by anyone else, no matter how many of them there are.

That's simple logic.


Yes, its logic that leads to anarchy.

As you keep saying, no government can ever possibly be legitimate because it can never obtain 100% consent from everyone, and taxes are always simply theft because consent for taxation will never be given by 100% of the people being taxed.

No taxation = no government.

Lack of consent by 100% of the population  = illegitimate government.

All of your various arguments lead to anarchy, which makes you a lunatic fringer, not a real libertarian.


  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #321 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:30am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 21st, 2018 at 9:29pm:
Whether I can or not is a separate issue. My point was that if nobody owns the money, I can morally just take it for myself.

Circulating fiat money is used as a convenient store of value. It represents specific amounts of actual property. If you steal my $20 FRN, you have stolen the property it could have purchased for me. If I help you harvest your sweet corn, and you give me $100 in FRNs in payment, that is much preferable to me than having you pay me with $100 worth of sweetcorn. Barter is difficult and inefficient, money makes economic transactions much easier.

This is fundamental stuff.

I own the property that the FRNs I hold will buy. Asking who owns my "money" is foolish.


  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #322 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:32am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 21st, 2018 at 9:29pm:
I gave you an example of government creating a right: A property right to the revenue they collect.[/b]
And as I pointed out, the government does not own collected revenue. It is permitted to collect revenue in order to accomplish the tasks that have been given to it to accomplish.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #323 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:42am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 21st, 2018 at 9:36pm:
Snarky Sack wrote Today at 4:57pm:


So, you do believe that my fiat money is the government's money?




I just said it, but I'll repeat myself for you.

Federal Reserve Notes are issued by the Federal Reserve Bank, not the government.

If anyone has a claim to the pretty pieces of paper, it's the Fed, not the government.

You however, own the equivalent of the notional value of your FRN in goods. You can take your $100 in FRN to the store and buy groceries.

Assuming you traded your labor for those FRNs rather than stealing them or having someone steal them for you, you traded your labor for the equivalent of $100 dollars worth of groceries.

It doesn't actually matter if the Fed claims to own the pretty pieces of paper or not, as long as they can be exchanged in the real economy as if they were actually money.

Would there be any confusion in your mind if you had $100 worth of Silver Certificates as to who owned the silver they represent?


  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #324 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:59am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:42am:
I just said it, but I'll repeat myself for you.

Federal Reserve Notes are issued by the Federal Reserve Bank, not the government.

If anyone has a claim to the pretty pieces of paper, it's the Fed, not the government.

You however, own the equivalent of the notional value of your FRN in goods. You can take your $100 in FRN to the store and buy groceries.

Assuming you traded your labor for those FRNs rather than stealing them or having someone steal them for you, you traded your labor for the equivalent of $100 dollars worth of groceries.

It doesn't actually matter if the Fed claims to own the pretty pieces of paper or not, as long as they can be exchanged in the real economy as if they were actually money.

Would there be any confusion in your mind if you had $100 worth of Silver Certificates as to who owned the silver they represent?




It would confuse me if you said, "Mr. Sack, you have to hand over ten of those certificates because the community has agreed to voluntarily tax ourselves for education."

I'd think, 'wait, who owns the silver these certificates represent?  Me or the community?'
  

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The Opposition
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #325 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 10:43am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:32am:
And as I pointed out, the government does not own collected revenue. It is permitted to collect revenue in order to accomplish the tasks that have been given to it to accomplish.


The government can't collect something off me unless it's theirs, not mine. This means the government has created a right - a property right - to that money. Without that, taking it would be wrong, not right.

If this isn't how property rights work, please say so.

At the instant the money becomes no longer mine, whoever erased the ownership I had is exercising a right. They must be, or my right to the money I earned would remain.

Jeff wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:30am:
I own the property that the FRNs I hold will buy. Asking who owns my "money" is foolish.


If you don't own the notes, then I do you no wrong when I rip them up. I may do the government wrong, and indeed the act is illegal, but I've done you no wrong by ripping up all your cash.

You know what? That's stupid. Asking a question is never foolish. This is doubly true if the person asked can't answer except with, "That's a stupid question." If it was really a foolish question you could easily provide the answer.

Who owns the money I earned? Me, or the government?

You absolutely do not own the property your notes will buy until you've bought it. In the meantime, you must own the notes, so that you can trade them for what you want. No one's going to trade you anything for notes that aren't yours. That's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #326 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 11:34am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:23am:
Yes, its logic that leads to anarchy.

As you keep saying, no government can ever possibly be legitimate because it can never obtain 100% consent from everyone, and taxes are always simply theft because consent for taxation will never be given by 100% of the people being taxed.

No taxation = no government.

Lack of consent by 100% of the population  = illegitimate government.

All of your various arguments lead to anarchy, which makes you a lunatic fringer, not a real libertarian.




The part in bold is absolutely false.  Government can be funded any number of ways without the theft of taxation as long as we accept that it will not be the bloated behemoth it always turns into when it does tax.


Texas state government bring in enough revenue for the needed functions of government through its toll roads and its lottery.  Local towns could fund their police through donations as many small towns funds their volunteer fire departments.   If people don’t fund police, then they clearly think they can use the money to keep themselves safe more efficiently than government can.

By definition, functions of the government that the people are not willing to voluntarily fund are not needed.  The people indicate that they do not need them when they say choose not to fund them.

The sole purpose of taxes is to force people to pay for government that they do not need.  The other alternative is that one group of people is demonstrably better than another group of people at deciding what is needed.  I don’t know how the could demonstrate that, but clearly “winning an election,” is not a viable way to make a determination that one person knows better how another person should spend their money.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #327 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 11:37am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:32am:
And as I pointed out, the government does not own collected revenue. It is permitted to collect revenue in order to accomplish the tasks that have been given to it to accomplish.

What about the wealth re-distribution?  Is that also permitted?  Or is it just tolerated?
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #328 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 5:46pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:59am:
It would confuse me if you said, "Mr. Sack, you have to hand over ten of those certificates because the community has agreed to voluntarily tax ourselves for education."


The very idea of legal taxation confuses you?

What about the "does the government own my money" bullshit? You wan't to let my opinion stand?
  
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #329 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 8:21pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 5:46pm:
The very idea of legal taxation confuses you?

What about the "does the government own my money" bullshit? You wan't to let my opinion stand?


I got that part.  You believe the government owns my money because it printed it.  You seem to imply that in the days of silver certificates I would have owned the silver that backed the certificates.  I'm asking how would the government come to own that silver without my consent?

If you're going to backtrack again and say I didn't own the silver because that belonged to the government also, fine.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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