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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) When has Government Ever Worked? (Read 2691 times)
The Opposition
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #330 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 5:46pm:
The very idea of legal taxation confuses you?


It doesn't confuse me in the slightest, and I'm fine with it.

But you also said government cannot create rights.

If they take my money, and it is not wrong, they have created a right to that money for themselves.

My contention is not that taxation is wrong. My contention is that if taxation is right, they have the right to take what they're taxing, and that right was created by them.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #331 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 8:54am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:42pm:
It doesn't confuse me in the slightest, and I'm fine with it.

But you also said government cannot create rights.

If they take my money, and it is not wrong, they have created a right to that money for themselves.

Many governments do that, but some have been granted the power to tax by the people through legitimate the processes of republican forms of government.

The U.S. Congress didn't give itself a right to tax (and it's not a right) that power was granted to Congress by the Constitution.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #332 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 8:59am
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This is the thread where we were talking about schools isn't it?

I hope so-

https://pjmedia.com/trending/thanks-common-core-act-scores-for-class-of-2018-wor...

https://reason.com/blog/2018/10/22/my-daughters-middle-school-plans-to-teac?utm_...

Just two strong arguments against federal involvement in education and good arguments for local control.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #333 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:05am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 8:59am:
This is the thread where we were talking about schools isn't it?

I hope so-

https://pjmedia.com/trending/thanks-common-core-act-scores-for-class-of-2018-wor...

https://reason.com/blog/2018/10/22/my-daughters-middle-school-plans-to-teac?utm_...

Just two strong arguments against federal involvement in education and good arguments for local control.


The people - through their elected representatives and executives - established the U.S. Department of Education.  They decided to pay for it through income taxes. 

Stop whining that it's doing its job.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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The Opposition
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #334 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:40am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 8:54am:
Many governments do that, but some have been granted the power to tax by the people through legitimate the processes of republican forms of government.

The U.S. Congress didn't give itself a right to tax (and it's not a right) that power was granted to Congress by the Constitution.


Desist your deliberate definitional distraction.

If they don't have a right to do it, it is wrong, not right, when they do it.

You can't defend taxation and at the same time say they have no right to tax. If you're defending it, that means you think they have a right to do it.

Having the power to do something doesn't make it okay. It just means you can.

If you think taxation is actually wrong, but still necessary, you've destroyed any purpose for defining things as wrong. We have the word wrong (in this sense) so we can try to make sense of what we should and should not do (in the sense that the things we should not do are morally unacceptable). If you're saying people should do morally unacceptable things, then you're just amoral.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #335 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 12:10pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:05am:
The people - through their elected representatives and executives - established the U.S. Department of Education.
But the representatives had no authority to create a Dept. of Education, because it is not a power granted to government by the Constitution.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #336 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 12:12pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:40am:
If they don't have a right to do it, it is wrong, not right, when they do it.

If it within the limited enumerated powers granted to government by the people through the Constitution, then they have the authority to do it. Government has been granted certain limited powers, not rights. Rights can't be granted.
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #337 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 12:14pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:40am:
If you think taxation is actually wrong, but still necessary, you've destroyed any purpose for defining things as wrong.
I think some limited government is necessary to protect and preserve individual liberty, and that taxation is necessary to support that necessary government.

The preservation of individual liberty is a moral goal.
  
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #338 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 12:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 10:40am:
Having the power to do something doesn't make it okay. It just means you can.

Exactly. 

Smiley
  
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Jeff
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Re: When has Government Ever Worked?
Reply #339 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 1:06pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 12:27pm:
Exactly. 

Smiley
Yes, I agree. But if it something you are supposed to do, for a purpose like reducing the number of thieves running around the community, then having the power to tax and using it to pay police and fund courts and build a jail is a good thing.

If, conversely, it is for something you aren't supposed to do, like redistributing wealth (or simply keeping it, as seems to happen to a huge amount of tax revenue), it becomes a bad thing.
  
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