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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary? (Read 613 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #20 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 8:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 6:19pm:
The Constitutional limits on the granted taxing power are very effective at keeping taxes very low, but only if they are used as they should be. But yes, you're right, ignoring those limits makes the power of taxation essentially unlimited and subject to being used as a political tool.


The constitution gives no numerical limitation.

How low can you guarantee taxes would be kept if congress followed the Constitution? 

A specific hard ceiling dollar amount or percent of wealth per capita, if you please.


  

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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #21 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:14pm
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All governments grow larger and more powerful over time.  This expansion is hastened with heavy, progressive taxation - like we now have in the US.

Initially (in 1913), the highest income tax bracket was 7%. 

Today, it's 37%!!!     Shocked   Shocked   Shocked   Leapin' Lizards!!!!  Over a 400% INCREASE !!

What the heck happened?  Who allowed this to happen?   

Nobody did.  Marxist Progressives wormed their way into government (they always do), and everything goes to shit.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #22 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 8:24am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 8:19pm:
The constitution gives no numerical limitation.

How low can you guarantee taxes would be kept if congress followed the Constitution? 
Because I understand how the Constitutional Rules of Apportionment and Uniformity would work if used as I describe them.

It will be necessary of course to first make it clear that any tax laid on wages and salaries is a Direct tax, no matter what Congress or the IRS labels it.

I also understand the the actual granted powers, the few powers that are enumerated by the Constitution, don't allow the government to spend much money...
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #23 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 8:37am
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 9:14pm:
All governments grow larger and more powerful over time.  This expansion is hastened with heavy, progressive taxation - like we now have in the US.

Initially (in 1913), the highest income tax bracket was 7%. 

Today, it's 37%!!!     Shocked   Shocked   Shocked   Leapin' Lizards!!!!  Over a 400% INCREASE !!

What the heck happened?  Who allowed this to happen?   

Nobody did.  Marxist Progressives wormed their way into government (they always do), and everything goes to shit.
It was the plan Chief, grant working people an "exemption" so they would owe nothing, and only tax the rich a little bit... Who would object? Who at the time ever imagined that the Fed would destroy the value of our "money" so that the "exemptions" would be meaningless and the tax would apply to working people's wages and salaries in ever growing percentages, or that the tax code would ever morph into a 60,000 page monster that was full of opportunities for some of the rich and connected and powerful to avoid paying much at all (even though the rich do pay almost all of the income tax, and nearly half of people pay nothing or get "tax credits")...

Sure some people predicted it would lead to this, because they saw that fiat money would inevitably be inflated and that the abandonment of the Constitutional limitations on the taxing power would lead to unlimited taxation...

Say, I read that NC has a proposed constitutional amendment on the ballot coming up that will limit the state income tax to a maximum of 7%, down from the current limit of 10%... It won't limit other taxes though, so if the NC government needs more money, they can raise other taxes, maybe legalize marijuana and make it's cultivation and sale a state monopoly... Maybe implement a VAT.

I don't know if NC has constitutional limits on its taxing powers that match the Rules of Apportionment and Uniformity or not, and I don't feel like trying to dig up the NC Constitution to find out.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #24 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 11:07am
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Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 8:19pm:
Quote:
The constitution gives no numerical limitation.

How low can you guarantee taxes would be kept if congress followed the Constitution?


Jeff wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 8:24am:
Because I understand how the Constitutional Rules of Apportionment and Uniformity would work if used as I describe them.

It will be necessary of course to first make it clear that any tax laid on wages and salaries is a Direct tax, no matter what Congress or the IRS labels it.

I also understand the the actual granted powers, the few powers that are enumerated by the Constitution, don't allow the government to spend much money...


Again, how low would taxes be if Congress followed the constitution?  What would be the upper limit per individual?

Or is there no limit you can state which means that it is unlimited?  Either there is a limit or it is unlimited, there is no third option.


  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #25 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 11:18am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 8:37am:
so if the NC government needs more money, they can raise other taxes, maybe legalize marijuana and make it's cultivation and sale a state monopoly...


That's actually another great way for government to generate revenue without using force.  No need for a monopoly, just start growing weed and selling it.  People who love government would buy it from the state rather than at the stores.

Problem is the overwhelming majority of weed is purchased using welfare if you correctly count student loans as welfare.  So in a libertarian system, demand for marijuana will be greatly reduced as typical potheads would be forced to work for food and would not be comfortable with the lethargy that marijuana produces.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #26 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 12:54pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 11:07am:
Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 8:19pm:


Again, how low would taxes be if Congress followed the constitution?  What would be the upper limit per individual?


What kind of tax?

It seems obvious to me that uniform indirect  taxes could be levied at different rates, and direct apportioned taxes could be set at different amounts.

If government was limited to it's enumerated powers, they wouldn't need to collect many taxes. Probably a uniform tax on all imports of 5% would be enough. Smiley

The essential issue is that the federal government is granted limited powers of taxation in order to collect the revenue needed to do the things they are tasked with doing by the Constitution.

The cost of providing for the common defense can vary...

If your talking "per individual" you are talking about a Direct tax that must be apportioned, so I'd say the upper limit has to be a very small amount, so all the poor people aren't bankrupted. Shocked Edit: 100 million bankrupted poor people will likely take up arms!

Edit: Here's how it's supposed to work- Congress creates a budget and determines how much revenue they need to collect. Then they decide what sort of tax they want to use to collect it.

They could determine they need $800 billion for fiscal year 2019, and that they want to collect $500 billion by means of a uniform import tariff on all imported goods, and $300 billion by uniformly taxing profits derived from the use of property.

The rate on imports doesn't have to be the same as the rate on profits.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #27 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 1:12pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 12:54pm:
What kind of tax?

It seems obvious to me that uniform indirect  taxes could be levied at different rates, and direct apportioned taxes could be set at different amounts.

If government was limited to it's enumerated powers, they wouldn't need to collect many taxes. Probably a uniform tax on all imports of 5% would be enough. Smiley

The essential issue is that the federal government is granted limited powers of taxation in order to collect the revenue needed to do the things they are tasked with doing by the Constitution.

The cost of providing for the common defense can vary...

If your talking "per individual" you are talking about a Direct tax that must be apportioned, so I'd say the upper limit has to be a very small amount, so all the poor people aren't bankrupted. Shocked Edit: 100 million bankrupted poor people will likely take up arms!

Edit: Here's how it's supposed to work- Congress creates a budget and determines how much revenue they need to collect. Then they decide what sort of tax they want to use to collect it.

They could determine they need $800 billion for fiscal year 2019, and that they want to collect $500 billion by means of a uniform import tariff on all imported goods, and $300 billion by uniformly taxing profits derived from the use of property.

The rate on imports doesn't have to be the same as the rate on profits.


So your idea is that by limiting the role of the federal government to what the constitution explicitly mandates it to do, taxes would be indirectly limited also?

That was a very good idea in 1787.  It probably seemed workable to even fairly intelligent people.  By 1791 to 1794, even fairly unintelligent people realized that with no consequences for going out of the bounds of the constitution, the federal government was bound to grow in size and scope as all centralized governments always have every single place and every single time they've been formed.

What the framers should have done is put a spending cap on the federal government which would have effectively limited taxes. 

I think that would be much better than your suggestion I placed in bold.  That idea would make imported goods far more expensive while at the same time discouraging all U.S. manufacturing.  The only beneficiaries of such a plan would be sellers who specialize in second hand goods. 

But, the main point is that you say, no - there is no limit to the amount of tax any individual is morally obligated to pay so long as the tax is legal.   So long as they don't bankrupt enough people that the people are likely to take up arms, there is no moral limit?

 
  

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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #28 - Oct 23rd, 2018 at 5:01pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 1:12pm:
So your idea is that by limiting the role of the federal government to what the constitution explicitly mandates it to do, taxes would be indirectly limited also?


If $900 billion was what as minimally required to fulfill current federal obligations, and they taxed us $3 trillion and said they couldn't account for the rest,  might you see a problem?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #29 - Oct 24th, 2018 at 9:35am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 23rd, 2018 at 5:01pm:
If $900 billion was what as minimally required to fulfill current federal obligations, and they taxed us $3 trillion and said they couldn't account for the rest,  might you see a problem?


I see it as a problem whether they can "account" for it or not.  Their accounting boils down to, "we took it and spent it because we know better than you how your money should be spent."

Your bizarre interpretation of the limits of what the federal government is allowed to do isn't supported by any Supreme Court decision ever.  The constitution says that the Supreme Court has the power to decide cases about what the constitution means, so you have no standing to disagree.

Even if they did for whatever reason decide to stick to "Jeff's rules," they could spend just as much on more aircraft carriers, more as they do now as long as you advocate unlimited taxation.

  

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