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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary? (Read 611 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #50 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 11:32am
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Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 8:47pm:
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No, the fact that government is voluntarily funded makes it far less likely that they will violate other rights.


Jeff wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 9:22am:
Why? You've created a government through voluntary donations. The problem of how to control that government remains. If you stop donating, what will prevent the government you've created voluntarily and funded with donations from starting to tax you?


The fact that with voluntary donations, the government would not have the means to be well-armed enough to forcibly tax.  You think the citizens of the U.S. would have ever voluntarily funded SWAT teams for the IRS?

Yes, it is possible that a voluntarily funded government could eventually get out of control and start taxing.  But how is that worse than the current system in which the government already is out of control and taxing?

Can you make an argument against libertarianism in which what you predict might happen under libertarianism isn't something that already happens under statism?

What would you think about a law that says tax collectors can never use guns.  You already claim it is a rare, once in a blue moon event when they do, so why not eliminate the possibility?  I'm guessing taxes would be very effectively limited if the taxman was only allowed to use fisticuffs instead of AR-15's.

Even more than that apportionment you put so much faith in that hasn't been working for two hundred-plus years.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #51 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 1:02pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 11:32am:
Snarky Sack wrote yesterday at 8:47pm:


The fact that with voluntary donations, the government would not have the means to be well-armed enough to forcibly tax.  You think the citizens of the U.S. would have ever voluntarily funded SWAT teams for the IRS?

It seems you suppose that because the government is funded by donations, that you will be able to direct how your donations are spent?

And I guess you agree with Rothbard that if only the U.S. diddn't have a military, that we wouldn't need a military, because no one will want to attack us if we have no national defense?

Do you plan to abolish the U.S. Constitution and start over?

How much money do you think will be raised in the annual fund drive? What will the spending priorities be for whatever amount is raised?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #52 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 1:08pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 11:32am:
Yes, it is possible that a voluntarily funded government could eventually get out of control and start taxing.  But how is that worse than the current system in which the government already is out of control and taxing?

It would as you say be no better, but it might be worse.

For a long period in my life, I lived paycheck to paycheck, or nearly so. Huge numbers of families do that now. I did not have, and they do not have, money available to donate to the operation of government.

Certainly if I had not been taxed, I would have had a little more money available, which I would have spent on necessities and perhaps savings and investment, (especially knowing that Social Security would not be funded) but I wouldn't have donated to the government.

What I see is a very high probability that the voluntary funding will come from the rich and from rich corporations... How will you prevent those who are (voluntarily) paying the piper from calling the tune?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #53 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 1:09pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 11:32am:
What would you think about a law that says tax collectors can never use guns.
Have you already abandoned your plan for voluntary funding?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #54 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 3:39pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 1:09pm:
Have you already abandoned your plan for voluntary funding?


Not at all.  What would you think about a law that would ban tax collectors from using guns on us?
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #55 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 1:08pm:
It would as you say be no better, but it might be worse.

For a long period in my life, I lived paycheck to paycheck, or nearly so. Huge numbers of families do that now. I did not have, and they do not have, money available to donate to the operation of government.

Certainly if I had not been taxed, I would have had a little more money available, which I would have spent on necessities and perhaps savings and investment, (especially knowing that Social Security would not be funded) but I wouldn't have donated to the government.

What I see is a very high probability that the voluntary funding will come from the rich and from rich corporations... How will you prevent those who are (voluntarily) paying the piper from calling the tune?


By electing people smart enough to know that the big money is in volume business, not catering to the wealthy.  Those in government already know that, which is why people who advocating "taxing millionaires and billionaires to help the poor" always mean people whose lifetime earnings may be "approach" a million dollars

Your scenario is unlikely to say the least, but what do you envision those wealthy people calling the tune having government do on their behalf?

Forcing us to buy their products?  Giving them large subsidies?  Regulating their industries to their advantage instead of the public's?

The wealthy get government to do all that now, so what would be the difference?


  

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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #56 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 3:54pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
By electing people smart enough to know...

Could you name a few? Are they running right now these "smart enough to know" people?

For your plan to work, there must be a majority in both houses of Congress who are "smart enough to know".

And of course knowing better doesn't guarantee good behavior when lots of money and power is up for grabs.

I think a convention called by the states is imperative, and I'm glad I'm old.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #57 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 3:56pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
Your scenario is unlikely to say the least, but what do you envision those wealthy people calling the tune having government do on their behalf?


You don't know how crony capitalism works? I thought you said you read Marx...
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #58 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 3:59pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 3:44pm:
The wealthy get government to do all that now, so what would be the difference?


That's what I've been telling you, that your idea will produce an even worse result because it will cut out the democratic base of republican government, without which republican forms of government can't exist.

What do you have when the people no longer have a voice in their government? China? Venezuela?
  
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Re: Why is the Question, “Should Taxes be Limited?” So Scary?
Reply #59 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 4:05pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 3:59pm:
That's what I've been telling you, that your idea will produce an even worse result because it will cut out the democratic base of republican government, without which republican forms of government can't exist.


LoL!

The democratic base of republican government in the U.S. is the Democratic and the Republican parties who gave us the wonderful options of voting for Clinton or Trump in 2016.


If that's whose running the government - and it is - I'd much rather government be funded without stealing from me.

So you admit that all you fear under a libertarian government is happening now, but somehow you imagine "it will be worse?"

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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