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Snarky Sack
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What Would Jesus Steal?
Sep 7th, 2018 at 8:51am
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Would Jesus steal medicine to save the life of a child?  (If for some reason, he could not simply heal her or raise her from the dead)

Leave Jesus out of it, if you like.  Whatever is your moral compass, would it allow you to steal under certain conditions?  Would you steal bread to feed your starving kids?  How about to feed yourself if you were starving?  How about if you were just really hungry, but you knew that you would not starve?

Would you force a doctor at gunpoint to perform surgery on your wife to save her life?  Would you steal a book if that were the only way for your child to learn to read?  Would you steal a gun if you feared for you life and wanted to be able to defend yourself?

In any case in which you say yes, would you think you were doing the right thing or that you were doing the wrong thing but in a situation in which it was justified?  Or would you think it was wrong and not justified, but you'd rather be wrong than dead?
  

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SkyChief
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #1 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 11:56am
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Jesus is not capable of sin.  He is incapable of violating any of the 10 Commandments - one of which is

Thou shalt not steal.



God tells us that taking wealth or property from a person by FORCE is a sin.  Most libertarians understand this, and that's why we object to Income Taxes.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #2 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 3:08pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 11:56am:
Jesus is not capable of sin.  He is incapable of violating any of the 10 Commandments - one of which is

Thou shalt not steal.



God tells us that taking wealth or property from a person by FORCE is a sin.  Most libertarians understand this, and that's why we object to Income Taxes.


Shouldn't that sentence read, God tells us that taking wealth or property from a person by FORCE is a sin.  Most libertarians understand this, and that's why we object to All Taxes.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #3 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 3:19pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 3:08pm:
Shouldn't that sentence read, God tells us that taking wealth or property from a person by FORCE is a sin.  Most libertarians understand this, and that's why we object to All Taxes.

IMO, no, because not All Taxes are taken by force.

I don't want to pay the Gasoline Tax.   So I drive a Tesla.   Smiley

I don't want to pay import tariffs.  So buy only domestic goods and services.    Smiley

I don't want to pay the Data Tax.    So I use the free Wi-Fi at Starbucks.    Smiley

I don't want to pay the Income Tax.   So I'm screwed, because if I don't surrender (a portion of) my salary to the government, they might put a lien on my property, or put me in jail!   Angry
  
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The Opposition
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #4 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 3:22pm
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This is what Penn Gillette advocates: Only tax if you would personally hold a gun to someone's head and steal it yourself.



Most people probably would do this for a dying child. (I would not, even for my own.) Unfortunately, it's difficult to universalise because universalising it has some effects a single use of force would not.

For example, because we don't steal the item or service in question from the provider, and instead steal money from others to give to the provider, the provider raises his prices.

Now, people who wouldn't otherwise have to steal, have to steal. So we steal again, and the provider raises his prices again.

Pretty soon, everyone is on government health care, and there absolutely is a dysgenic amplifying effect on this whole mess from saving everyone from everything and letting them all breed.

I have always thought that if you're saved on the government's dime, you shouldn't be allowed to breed until you pay it all back. For some reason this is considered a lot darker than the libertarian idea of just not saving them, or the idea that everyone should just be saved with no strings (which definitively will kill society).
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Snarky Sack
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #5 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:07pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 3:19pm:
IMO, no, because not All Taxes are taken by force.

I don't want to pay the Gasoline Tax.   So I drive a Tesla.   Smiley

I don't want to pay import tariffs.  So buy only domestic goods and services.    Smiley

I don't want to pay the Data Tax.    So I use the free Wi-Fi at Starbucks.    Smiley

I don't want to pay the Income Tax.   So I'm screwed, because if I don't surrender (a portion of) my salary to the government, they might put a lien on my property, or put me in jail!   Angry


By your logic, if I don't want to pay the income tax, all I have to do is not earn any income.

About half of Americans avoid taxes through that simple choice.

I would like to only buy American, though.  Can you tell me where that store is?
  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #6 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 3:22pm:
This is what Penn Gillette advocates: Only tax if you would personally hold a gun to someone's head and steal it yourself.



Most people probably would do this for a dying child. (I would not, even for my own.) Unfortunately, it's difficult to universalise because universalising it has some effects a single use of force would not.

For example, because we don't steal the item or service in question from the provider, and instead steal money from others to give to the provider, the provider raises his prices.

Now, people who wouldn't otherwise have to steal, have to steal. So we steal again, and the provider raises his prices again.

Pretty soon, everyone is on government health care, and there absolutely is a dysgenic amplifying effect on this whole mess from saving everyone from everything and letting them all breed.

I have always thought that if you're saved on the government's dime, you shouldn't be allowed to breed until you pay it all back. For some reason this is considered a lot darker than the libertarian idea of just not saving them, or the idea that everyone should just be saved with no strings (which definitively will kill society).
Maybe it seems darker because people imagine draconian means of preventing the reproduction.

Why not just make welfare contingent on sterilization?  Not force, just if you want the money, get snipped.  You are free to have reversal surgery later, if you've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps and can afford to pay for it.

There was a movement years ago to offer women money to get on and stay on Norplant contraceptives.  IIRC, a private foundation offered five hundred dollars for sexually active teens get the implants followed by fifty dollars a month to stay on it. 

It save tens of thousands in welfare as pregnancies plummeted in the area.  Not to mention the benefit to the teens of not getting pregnant. 

But of course, progressives called it "genocide" and a good idea bit the dust.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #7 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:54pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 8:51am:
Would Jesus steal medicine to save the life of a child? 
 
Rumors say that when Jesus was on Earth, he healed people miraculously through the power of God.

Are you claiming that power has been lost?
  
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Jeff
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #8 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:55pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Maybe it seems darker because people imagine draconian means of preventing the reproduction.
That's been a nagging worry for me since the '60s. Shocked
  
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Jeff
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #9 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:57pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Why not just make welfare contingent on sterilization?  Not force, just if you want the money, get snipped.

I never worried about this happening until just lately.

I thought the example of the Nazis and the Soviets was horrible enough to make such ideas disappear forever from human minds.
  
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