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Jeff
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #60 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 8:59am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 8:27am:
So long as you don't keep falling back on the "a" word every time you lose an argument, I'm happy to.

Let's start with this:

On the frontier, towns would form to serve the migrants and the cowboys who moved about over the vast stretches.  It would nearly always start with a saloon/brothel/casino.  Then a hotel/restaurant, maybe blacksmith, hardware store, dry goods, groceries, etc.  All freely operating enterprises and protecting their own interests with locks, dogs, guns, bouncers and just plain vigilance.  Sooner or later, these townsmen would get together and hire a sheriff or town marshall.  They would agree on a contribution from each owner and provide a salary and an office.

Do you agree that this was a voluntary arrangement?  Yes or no, then explain all you like.

I don't actually know Red. In very small communities, it might have started out as a completely voluntary arrangement, but I think that as the communities grew to a point where they needed a jail and some deputies, they got to a point where they also formed a local government and instituted taxation to pay for it all.

Some protection was always provided to frontier towns and settlements and even lone settlers by U.S. Marshalls and their deputies, and they were always paid with tax revenues, as were the Circuit Judges.

BTW, "agreed on contributions" sounds, in practice, very much like taxes...

No matter, we're a long way from small frontier communities where everybody knows everybody.

Small communes often work for a while, where everybody says they'll chip in by doing what they can for the community, and if they are held together by a common religion and common ethic, they can even sometimes last for years and grow to a fairly large size, but sooner or later, people discover that some of the communards aren't pulling their weight, and the communities unravel.

I'm not convinced of the feasibility of voluntarily funded government by reference to what might have happened for a while long ago in small frontier towns.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #61 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 9:45am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 7:31am:
YouTube hasn't and can't stop conservative or libertarian viewpoints from being expressed and aired unless they are granted a monopoly privilege of being the only permitted forum for viewpoints to be aired.

You take the side of authoritarians when you mention "letting" a private company do or not do something.


No, I don't. I've said YouTube should be allowed to deplatform whatever content they wish, but stay out of my pocket for public schools. If I must sacrifice rights to make the world better, why not others?

Yes, stealing from me to make sure everyone is educated does make the world a better place. So does forcing major platforms like YouTube to be politically neutral.

You and every libertarian on this board has successfully stripped me of every right that libertarianism provides but Statism does not, which I might actually want to use. I can't have a chicken because bird flu. I can't have a tiger because obviously, it's a dangerous animal. I can't keep what I earn, because the brainless thugs who want to beat the geniuses to a bloody pulp need to be educated too.

You establish a bunch of rights, but the little guy must always make a sacrifice of the absolute ideal of those rights so the world can be better.

Can you think of an example where a business should have to sacrifice rights? I bet you can't.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Snarky Sack
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #62 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:14pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 8:59am:
I don't actually know Red. In very small communities, it might have started out as a completely voluntary arrangement,


Right, so you do know.

Quote:
but I think that as the communities grew to a point where they needed a jail and some deputies, they got to a point where they also formed a local government and instituted taxation to pay for it all.


How do you distinguish the word "need" from the word "want."

what I would see happening in that situation is that the townspeople, primarily the sheriff himself,  "want" a jail and some deputies but they don't "want" to pay for it all themselves.  As so many others have before, they decided stealing was easier than working.

But that's not where the problem started.  It didn't start with the townsfolk deciding to have the sheriff levy taxes.  It started as soon as they decided to let the sheriff carry guns because they wanted both hands free to make money.  The idea,'the sheriff can bear arms for us,' has an unspoken corollary:  'Only the sheriff can bear arms."  The sheriff hears it loud and clear even if the store owners don't.  Doesn't take long before everyone has to check their guns in with the Sheriff of Big Whiskey, Wyoming.

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Some protection was always provided to frontier towns and settlements and even lone settlers by U.S. Marshalls and their deputies, and they were always paid with tax revenues, as were the Circuit Judges.


Hopefully their response time was shorter than my local sheriff's deputies'.


Quote:
BTW, "agreed on contributions" sounds, in practice, very much like taxes...


One is moral and the other isn't, as you've admitted yourself.
  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #63 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:47pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Right, so you do know.
I think it might have happened that way.

That doesn't constitute "knowing". Maybe you could drag up some evidence?
  
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Jeff
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #64 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:50pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
How do you distinguish the word "need" from the word "want."


If you've caught a murderer and are waiting for the U.S. Marshal to come get him, or you are holding him for trial when the Circuit Judge shows up, you both want and need a jail.
  
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Jeff
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #65 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:52pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
Hopefully their response time was shorter than my local sheriff's deputies'.
Sometimes the Marshal (and the Circuit Judges) had  big territories to cover, so the waits could be long. That's why they wanted and needed jails.
  
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Jeff
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #66 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:56pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 12:14pm:
One is moral and the other isn't, as you've admitted yourself.
Tell me more about how these "agreements to contribute worked?

Or not.

You are still talking about something that happened (if that's really what happened) in very small communities where everybody knew everybody. It just doesn't automatically translate up to police and courts and jails in Ft. Worth, Texas today.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #67 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:01pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:47pm:
I think it might have happened that way.

That doesn't constitute "knowing". Maybe you could drag up some evidence?


You know that in my scenario, the payments are voluntary.  Interesting that you claim that communities voluntarily funded one-room schoolhouses, but you balk at accepting that they voluntarily funded the sheriff.

It's almost as if you don't want to concede even the smallest and most obvious point, for fear that those small points will add up to a strong refutation of your argument in favor of taxation though force.
  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Snarky Sack
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #68 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:13pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:52pm:
Sometimes the Marshal (and the Circuit Judges) had  big territories to cover, so the waits could be long. That's why they wanted and needed jails.


So, you agree that there is no difference between a need and a want?  Very good.  Tax advocates frequently site a huge moral distinction, but it always boils down to "needs are what I agree should be done with your money, want are what you believe should be done with your money."

So yes.  The towns folk wanted/needed a jail to hold dangerous criminals who they somehow captured instead of killing.  So, knowing that need, they would have been willing to pay for it.  Sure beats having outlaws running around robbing their dry goods stores, busting up their saloons, etc.

What if the banker says,

"I already hired three shifts of security teams and they are well-armed and very reliable.  Anyone tries to rob my bank they're going to the cemetery, not the jail.  I'll pay my guards a bonus to bury, 'em.   So, I'm good, thanks!"

What now?

Think carefully about any plan to force him to pay.  Don't forget his well-armed men.




  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #69 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:16pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:01pm:
You know that in my scenario, the payments are voluntary.  Interesting that you claim that communities voluntarily funded one-room schoolhouses, but you balk at accepting that they voluntarily funded the sheriff.

It's almost as if you don't want to concede even the smallest and most obvious point, for fear that those small points will add up to a strong refutation of your argument in favor of taxation though force.

OK. They voluntarily funded the school and the Sheriff.

It still doesn't automatically scale up to funding the Ft.Worth Police  and courts and jails by donations. Or the Ft. Worth schools.

I did mention that Michigan funded one room schools in very small communities through state taxes. The reason was, the communities couldn't afford to pay the teachers. Even if you had a county wide system, there were counties that couldn't afford to pay the teachers, voluntarily or not.
  
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