Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › What Would Jesus Steal?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What Would Jesus Steal? (Read 710 times)
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4246
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #70 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:52pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:16pm:
OK. They voluntarily funded the school and the Sheriff.

It still doesn't automatically scale up to funding the Ft.Worth Police  and courts and jails by donations. Or the Ft. Worth schools.


Right, but Fort Worth was originally an Army outpost with some storeowners "allowed" by the commander to sell to troops.  The Army moved on and the storeowners remained, willing to voluntarily provide their own defense.  John Peter Smith, a highly educated man, voluntarily funded the first school in Fort Worth.

Yes, at some point, taxes were instituted in Fort Worth.  But that was for expediency, not necessity.  Government is like a monster that people think will protect them or at least not attack them as long as they spend vast wealth feeding it.  We are so tired from all the work it takes to feed the beast that starving it out doesn't occur to us.

You are right that we cannot overnight declare that all government will be funded voluntarily and still have the absurdly large and redundant interlocking levels of government you insist must be funded.  What we would have is exactly as much government as the people are willing to fund.  Why in the world should we be forced to have anything else?

Quote:
I did mention that Michigan funded one room schools in very small communities through state taxes. The reason was, the communities couldn't afford to pay the teachers. Even if you had a county wide system, there were counties that couldn't afford to pay the teachers, voluntarily or not.


I'm sure there are many counties that cannot afford high quality hospitals for all people to access equally or safe and reliable public transportation or feed-the-hungry programs or swimming pools and public parks and educational theater programs and fine arts museums and transgender sensitivity training classes.

Do you support coerced taxation to provide those things as well?

If you pick and choose programs to be funded, I'm fine with that.  In my voluntary system, people would certainly pick and choose.  But if you pick and choose what is acceptable to fund at the threat of death or  imprisonment, you lose the moral highground.


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35675
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #71 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 5:15pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:52pm:
Right, but Fort Worth was originally an Army outpost with some storeowners "allowed" by the commander to sell to troops.  The Army moved on and the storeowners remained, willing to voluntarily provide their own defense.  John Peter Smith, a highly educated man, voluntarily funded the first school in Fort Worth.

Yes, at some point, taxes were instituted in Fort Worth.  But that was for expediency, not necessity.  Government is like a monster that people think will protect them or at least not attack them as long as they spend vast wealth feeding it.  We are so tired from all the work it takes to feed the beast that starving it out doesn't occur to us.

You are right that we cannot overnight declare that all government will be funded voluntarily and still have the absurdly large and redundant interlocking levels of government you insist must be funded.  What we would have is exactly as much government as the people are willing to fund.  Why in the world should we be forced to have anything else?


I'm sure there are many counties that cannot afford high quality hospitals for all people to access equally or safe and reliable public transportation or feed-the-hungry programs or swimming pools and public parks and educational theater programs and fine arts museums and transgender sensitivity training classes.

Do you support coerced taxation to provide those things as well?

If you pick and choose programs to be funded, I'm fine with that.  In my voluntary system, people would certainly pick and choose.  But if you pick and choose what is acceptable to fund at the threat of death or  imprisonment, you lose the moral highground.


If people really hate taxes and think of them as theft, as you say, and if people will voluntarily pay for government, as you say, and if it's really a better idea, why aren't there any towns or cities you can point to as examples of how well it works?

Yes, privatizing (really privatizing, no USPS type deals) anything not a truly necessary function of government is a great idea and I'm in favor of all of it, but I think private police and private courts and private jails/prisons are a very bad idea, as is a privatized military.

Instead of just condemning libertarians who believe limited government is necessary and taxation is necessary to support it, and calling taxation theft, start pointing us to the real world success stories resulting from your fantasies.

Thanks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4246
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #72 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 2:45pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 5:15pm:
If people really hate taxes and think of them as theft, as you say, and if people will voluntarily pay for government, as you say, and if it's really a better idea, why aren't there any towns or cities you can point to as examples of how well it works?


Because only libertarians realize that taxes are theft and that people will voluntarily pay for good government.  We are greatly outnumbered by you statist tax-and-spenders.

The majority are like you in that you believe that the benefits you get from other people’s money outweighs the cost of paying taxes yourselves.  That’s if they think about it at all instead of taking taxes as an unavoidable part of life. 

It is that combination of the desire to have something for nothing, ignorance and learned helplessness that governments count on to keep doing things like spending money that was taxed under the guise of education on swimming pools and transgender sensitivity training.

Quote:
Yes, privatizing (really privatizing, no USPS type deals) anything not a truly necessary function of government is a great idea and I'm in favor of all of it, but I think private police and private courts and private jails/prisons are a very bad idea, as is a privatized military.


Neither do I.  You lie when you imply that I ever advocated private courts and private jail and a private military.  I have tried to say that more nicely, but since you’re being dense, I’ll be blunt.  You’re a lying liar and everyone knows it.

Quote:
Instead of just condemning libertarians who believe limited government is necessary and taxation is necessary to support it, and calling taxation theft, start pointing us to the real world success stories resulting from your fantasies.


I don’t condemn libertarians who believe taxation is not theft for the same reason I don’t condemn flying unicorns.  They are non-existent


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35675
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #73 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:12pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 2:45pm:
Because only libertarians realize that taxes are theft and that people will voluntarily pay for good government.  We are greatly outnumbered by you statist tax-and-spenders.

The majority are like you in that you believe that the benefits you get from other people’s money outweighs the cost of paying taxes yourselves. 
Do you imagine you are describing people in the small frontier communities that formed governments and started imposing taxes?

Americans from the very beginning were statist taxers and spenders hoping to scam benefits out of taxing others while escaping taxation themselves?

Not even one of those communities ever grew larger and did things the way you think they should have, funding their government by voluntary means...

I guess you've explained it as best you can...

People just aren't the way you think they should be.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7913
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #74 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:30pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:12pm:
Americans from the very beginning were statist taxers and spenders hoping to scam benefits out of taxing others while escaping taxation themselves?

Where did you get this idea??

Early Americans threw crates of tea into Boston Harbor because they refused to pay the Tea Tax.

Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:12pm:
People just aren't the way you think they should be.
People have become soft.  Heavy taxes have been around for so long, people have grown accustomed to them. 

Most of them, anyways.  Those of us who ARE bothered by heavy taxes call ourselves libertarians!   Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4246
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #75 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:51pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:12pm:
Do you imagine you are describing people in the small frontier communities that formed governments and started imposing taxes?


The people formed the government and then government started imposing taxes.  By that time, the people were so used to having the government carry the guns for them that they went along with it.

Quote:
Americans from the very beginning were statist taxers and spenders hoping to scam benefits out of taxing others while escaping taxation themselves?


Americans set that in motion when they decided that force was easier than persuasion.

Quote:
Not even one of those communities ever grew larger and did things the way you think they should have, funding their government by voluntary means...

I guess you've explained it as best you can...

People just aren't the way you think they should be.


Exactly!  They are either greedy, lazy or sheeplike.

Or in some cases (ahem) all three.

It seems strange that you criticize me for advocating something that has never been tried, when you advocate a system that has been tried thousands of times and has never. . . and I mean ever . . .  been anything but a colossal failure.

Hm . . .




  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35675
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #76 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 4:53pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:30pm:
Where did you get this idea??

From you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35675
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #77 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 4:56pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 3:30pm:
People have become soft.  Heavy taxes have been around for so long, people have grown accustomed to them. 

Speak for yourself. What I see is that people working for a living and trying to keep small businesses afloat are getting scared, which makes them angry.

Libertarians just want to be sure the anger is properly directed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7913
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #78 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 5:47pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 4:56pm:
Speak for yourself. What I see is that people working for a living and trying to keep small businesses afloat are getting scared, which makes them angry.

Libertarians just want to be sure the anger is properly directed.

There is nobody alive today that can remember a time when Americans didn't have high taxes.

Sure, it's gotten worse over time, but Americans have been heavily taxed since 1913.

"Since we believe that every man is entitled to keep the fruits of his labor, we are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of all taxation."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35675
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: What Would Jesus Steal?
Reply #79 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 6:38pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 5:47pm:
There is nobody alive today that can remember a time when Americans didn't have high taxes.
They were pretty low in 1960. I can remember that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › What Would Jesus Steal?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy