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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam. (Read 2432 times)
Snarky Sack
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Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:00pm
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A Cincinnati cop failed to follow department policy when he tased an 11-year-old girl for shoplifting last month, police investigators say.

As Reason reported last month, Brown was off-duty and working security at a Kroger on August 6 when he investigated three girls believed to be shoplifting. According to a police use of force review, he told one of the girls, 11-year-old Donesha Gowdy, to stop and show her receipt, but she wouldn't listen. Gowdy exited the store, at which point Brown tased her from roughly 10 feet away.

The tasing itself wasn't caught on Brown's body camera, but he turned it on soon after. Then he took Gowdy into the Kroger manager's office. "Sweetheart, the last thing I want to do is tase you like that. When I say stop, you stop. You know you're caught. Just stop. That hurt my heart to do that to you," Brown can be heard telling Gowdy. "You broke the law, and you fled as I tried to apprehend you."

He adds: "You know what, Sweetheart, this is why there aren't any grocery stores in the black community." Brown and Gowdy are both black.


See, how we are suckers?  See how we waste our money on things like body cams to keep police officers accountable, but them allow them to turn them off when they want to get away with something?

Hopefully, I don't have to comment on the appropriateness of the tasing itself.  No libertarian would disagree with my opinion of that.

EDIT:

The printed transcript doesn't catch the tone the officer used with the child.  He wasn't calling her "sweetheart" to sooth her.  He was actually angry at her for causing him heartache:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/09/04/cincinnati-cop-who-tased-kid-ha...

But, only under a system of voluntary funding would police be controlled by the wealthy  Roll Eyes
  

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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #1 - Sep 7th, 2018 at 5:19pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:00pm:
See, how we are suckers?  See how we waste our money on things like body cams to keep police officers accountable, but them allow them to turn them off when they want to get away with something?


Don't bitch at me and include me in your "we", asshole.

I'm not protecting any police that don't have their body cam on when they approach anyone they think is a suspected lawbreaker.

Who is protecting them? Do you really not know?

Wouldn't your anarchist philosophy lead you to say it would be aggression  to force police to wear body cams and a violation of their rights as free people?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #2 - Sep 8th, 2018 at 11:35am
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I think body-cams should be mandatory for all law enforcement officers.  It should be a condition of employment.  If officers do not comply (by turning off the body-cam) , they should be disciplined or fired.

This would provide a good incentive for officers to keep their body-cams on, and they will make better decisions dealing with civilians.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #3 - Sep 8th, 2018 at 1:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 5:19pm:
Don't bitch at me and include me in your "we", asshole.

I'm not protecting any police that don't have their body cam on when they approach anyone they think is a suspected lawbreaker.


You are eagerly accepting being forced to pay for them as long as "everyone else" also has to pay for them (which they don't).

Quote:
Who is protecting them? Do you really not know?


You're the biggest badge kisser on this board, so I'm guessing you think body cams are a good idea since police are constantly beset with false allegation of abuse just for doing their jobs. 

If you are going to claim that it is the police unions that are protecting them, I don't disagree with that.  I am in agreement with your stance on unions having more powers granted to them by law than employers. 

We accept that, along with all the other bad government we accept, primarily due to our laziness and ignorance.  Not that we are lazy and ignorant in general.  Most of us are smarter than the government that preys on us.  We just concentrate our brains and efforts in our personal pursuits of happiness.  That's fine, but we don't realize how much easier our pursuits would be if we were not constantly hindered by our absurdly large government.   

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Wouldn't your anarchist philosophy lead you to say it would be aggression  to force police to wear body cams and a violation of their rights as free people?


An anarchist would want no police.  A libertarian understands that conditions of employment such as body cams or not speaking out against one's employer in public doesn't violate any rights.

  

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The Opposition
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #4 - Sep 8th, 2018 at 1:22pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 1:00pm:
You're the biggest badge kisser on this board, so I'm guessing you think body cams are a good idea since police are constantly beset with false allegation of abuse just for doing their jobs. 


I actually do love the police, which is why I think this is such a good idea. You probably would too if you'd lived in a rotten neighbourhood like I did when I was little. Libertarians don't come out of situations like these - libertarians come out of upper middle class white bread neighbourhoods where they've never been exposed to significant amounts of crime and they imagine cops are useless do-nothings who steal their heard-earned tax money.

A lot of people will be fired at first, but they'll eventually have to adjust the standard to what's actually necessary to do the job. This thread is a perfect example: Shoplifters have discovered that they can just keep walking and the officer won't be able to catch them except by breaking his code.

This will be an epidemic as more and more shoplifters learn they're immune from reprisal, and there will be a conversation about whether or not the code is reasonable. This is what we really need. Let body cams force it to happen.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #5 - Sep 8th, 2018 at 2:12pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 1:00pm:
You are eagerly accepting being forced to pay for them as long as "everyone else" also has to pay for them (which they don't).
I think it would be wonderful beyond words if no police were needed, and even better if no government at all were needed.

No, I do not "eagerly" pay taxes for police. I consider them to be an unfortunately necessary service of government, and I have had my share of interactions with bad cops, or at least cops having a bad day.

Make them all wear body cams and write a presumption into the law that a cop with his/her body cam off cannot take any official action under the law- no body cam footage, no arrest. No body cam footage, a presumption of murder when a dead body shows up with a cops bullets in it. Forgot to turn on your body cam? Be prepared to prove it wasn't murder.

That's not likely to happen any time soon. Police unions oppose it. Governments oppose it.

And yes, body cam footage would also show that police were not guilty of abuse if they were indeed not guilty of abuse.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #6 - Sep 8th, 2018 at 2:16pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 8th, 2018 at 1:22pm:
I actually do love the police, which is why I think this is such a good idea. You probably would too if you'd lived in a rotten neighbourhood like I did when I was little. Libertarians don't come out of situations like these - libertarians come out of upper middle class white bread neighbourhoods where they've never been exposed to significant amounts of crime and they imagine cops are useless do-nothings who steal their heard-earned tax money.

Once again you mischaracterize libertarians.
  
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #7 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 12:37pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:00pm:
Hopefully, I don't have to comment on the appropriateness of the tasing itself.  No libertarian would disagree with my opinion of that.


This one does. The cop had two basic options:

1. Allow the thief to escape;

2. Stop the thief.

If he elects to stop her, he has two more options:

1. Taser her;

2. Grab her bodily and carry her to the manager's office.

Which of those options do you prefer?

Every person may use reasonable force to protect his property from thieves. It doesn't matter whether the thief is 10 years old or 40 years old, though how much force is reasonable may vary with the age and stature of the thief.

Are you suggesting that the cop's use of force wasn't reasonable? If you are, what force would have been reasonable?

Or are you suggesting that 11 year-olds may steal with impunity?

A couple of details on this case: 1. The cop told the girl, "This is why there are no grocery stores in black neighborhoods." So he is being excoriated for making a "predjudicial (i.e., a politically incorrect) comment." Even though the cop himself is black.

2. The girl was indeed a thief. When the cops searched her backpack they found $53 worth of shoplifted goods, including the backpack itself.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #8 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 1:44pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 12:37pm:
Or are you suggesting that 11 year-olds may steal with impunity?


Children are in a weird place in libertarian theory. They have rights, but they aren't required to respect the rights of others.

This is why bullies in schools don't get prosecuted for assault.

I would greatly prefer a world in which children must respect the rights of others, especially for the good of other children, but we don't live in that world and I can't make a rights-based moral argument that we should.

Children aren't adults and in many cases they really don't know any better. The case can be made (and I think this is, in fact, what the world goes on) that it would be morally equivalent to punishing a seagull.



But we can't just shoot the child as we can the seagull. We must still respect the rights of children because they are future adults. It's not fair in the slightest, but based on the posts I've seen on this forum, it is right.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #9 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:00pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 12:37pm:
This one does. The cop had two basic options:

1. Allow the thief to escape;

2. Stop the thief.

If he elects to stop her, he has two more options:

1. Taser her;

2. Grab her bodily and carry her to the manager's office.

Which of those options do you prefer?

Every person may use reasonable force to protect his property from thieves. It doesn't matter whether the thief is 10 years old or 40 years old, though how much force is reasonable may vary with the age and stature of the thief.

Are you suggesting that the cop's use of force wasn't reasonable? If you are, what force would have been reasonable?

Or are you suggesting that 11 year-olds may steal with impunity?

A couple of details on this case: 1. The cop told the girl, "This is why there are no grocery stores in black neighborhoods." So he is being excoriated for making a "predjudicial (i.e., a politically incorrect) comment." Even though the cop himself is black.

2. The girl was indeed a thief. When the cops searched her backpack they found $53 worth of shoplifted goods, including the backpack itself.
Tasers are quite dangerous and will simply kill some people. In any event, they are extremely painful and make good torture devices if the torture victim doesn't die.

No thief (much less a juvenile shoplifter), even after conviction, would be subjected to tasing as a punishment.

It's a bedrock of civilized law that the punishment fit the crime, and this punishment, administered before the crime was proved in court, was excessive.

Yes, catch her if you can.
  
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