Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 12 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam. (Read 693 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 33527
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #10 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:03pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 1:44pm:
Children are in a weird place in libertarian theory. They have rights, but they aren't required to respect the rights of others.

There is no libertarian theory that says children aren't required to respect the rights of others.

It is "progressive" theory that says you should never punish children and that bullies are just "expressing themselves".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GEMorton
Libertarian Senior Member
****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 252
Joined: Aug 24th, 2015
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #11 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:54pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 1:44pm:
Children aren't adults and in many cases they really don't know any better. The case can be made (and I think this is, in fact, what the world goes on) that it would be morally equivalent to punishing a seagull.


You and Jeff make the same mistake. Using force to stop a thief is not "punishing" the thief. Punishment is retribution applied after a crime has been committed and the perpetrator caught. Nor is it likely this child didn't know any better. That argument might be valid for a 3 year-old, but not for an 11 year-old.


Quote:
But we can't just shoot the child as we can the seagull. We must still respect the rights of children because they are future adults. It's not fair in the slightest, but based on the posts I've seen on this forum, it is right.


You didn't answer the questions: May children steal with impunity? If not, what force is reasonable in these cases?

Are you suggesting children have a "right" to steal? If that is not what you're suggesting, what right of the child was violated? BTW, that they are future adults is a very good reason to teach them early that there are unpleasant consequences to stealing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GEMorton
Libertarian Senior Member
****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 252
Joined: Aug 24th, 2015
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #12 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:58pm
Print Post  
duplicate
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 33527
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #13 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 5:33pm
Print Post  
GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
You and Jeff make the same mistake. Using force to stop a thief is not "punishing" the thief. Punishment is retribution applied after a crime has been committed and the perpetrator caught.
You mistake being suspected and accused of a crime with being guilty, and seem unaware of the longstanding theory in our law that requires that the force used to prevent a crime or apprehend a suspect be proportional to the severity of the crime that is suspected to have been committed.

You can tase someone who you justifiably fear is endangering your life or physical safety, otherwise you can't.

Yes, the police can use physical force, including deadly force, when a suspect is resisting arrest and endangering their persons, and they can even use deadly force if a suspect is fleeing the scene of a murder, but tasing children suspected of shoplifting is not an approved law enforcement technique.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 33527
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #14 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 5:35pm
Print Post  
GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
You didn't answer the questions: May children steal with impunity? If not, what force is reasonable in these cases?
What penalty would you impose on a child caught shoplifting where all the evidence showed that the child was in fact guilty of shoplifting? Tase them? Would you have a Doctor examine them first so you could be reasonably sure they wouldn't die when you tased them?

How do you feel about clubbing children suspected of shoplifting to the ground with axe handles?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thermf5
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2000
Location: sin city
Joined: Aug 19th, 2017
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #15 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 7:44pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 5:19pm:
Don't bitch at me and include me in your "we", asshole.

I'm not protecting any police that don't have their body cam on when they approach anyone they think is a suspected lawbreaker.

Who is protecting them? Do you really not know?

Wouldn't your anarchist philosophy lead you to say it would be aggression  to force police to wear body cams and a violation of their rights as free people?

it agenst anarchist philosophy to have cops in the first place and  unless cops have a kill switch with strict pormamters that would stip departments of most of there cops ether by actuuly holding them to the standered that is needed
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
thermf5
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 2000
Location: sin city
Joined: Aug 19th, 2017
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #16 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 7:46pm
Print Post  
GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
You and Jeff make the same mistake. Using force to stop a thief is not "punishing" the thief. Punishment is retribution applied after a crime has been committed and the perpetrator caught. Nor is it likely this child didn't know any better. That argument might be valid for a 3 year-old, but not for an 11 year-old.



You didn't answer the questions: May children steal with impunity? If not, what force is reasonable in these cases?

Are you suggesting children have a "right" to steal? If that is not what you're suggesting, what right of the child was violated? BTW, that they are future adults is a very good reason to teach them early that there are unpleasant consequences to stealing.

the cop should have run at hear and done a take down not use a taser equle fore tazers can kill u f u have a hart condition and should olny be used if there is volance involed
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7486
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #17 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 8:03pm
Print Post  
GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
You and Jeff make the same mistake. Using force to stop a thief is not "punishing" the thief.


I only used the word punish to illustrate the matter of the seagull, and separate what is reasonable to do to it because it has stolen, from what one may do to it anyway because it doesn't have rights.

The child has the best of both worlds. It has the accountability of the seagull and the rights of a person.

GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
Nor is it likely this child didn't know any better. That argument might be valid for a 3 year-old, but not for an 11 year-old.


The curious thing about this is that making the three-year-old accountable is a prerequisite to the child learning better. So if we only hold those accountable who are, no new people will ever become accountable. This is no doubt the reason so many 13-year-olds steal. They might know it's wrong on an idiot's level (what morons rule-followers are!) but that doesn't apply to them. They're smart. They know how the world actually works.

GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
You didn't answer the questions: May children steal with impunity? If not, what force is reasonable in these cases?


Read Jeff's post. If the kid keeps walking, and no force in proportion to the theft will stop it, it gets to keep going, laden with its loot. Perhaps banning that child from that store in the future would be the only option.

Again, none of this sits well with me at all. I prefer a world that doesn't give children (or anyone, for that matter) these free passes. I prefer a world that is fair to one that is right.

GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
Are you suggesting children have a "right" to steal? If that is not what you're suggesting, what right of the child was violated?


No; the child can't have a right to steal. There are no legitimate positive rights. The child has a right not to be aggressed against, and the police officer did so when he tased her. As Jeff notes, not only did the officer harm someone without first making sure they were guilty, he used force that was not in proportion to the force used by the child.

Again, I don't like any of this at all. I would prefer a world that doesn't stick by the NAP and instead catches thieves, even if they just keep walking. But what I like and do not like is irrelevant. The proper aim is for a world that is right, not one that is fair.

GEMorton wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:54pm:
BTW, that they are future adults is a very good reason to teach them early that there are unpleasant consequences to stealing.


Why teach them that, when there are not such unpleasant consequences? Everyone in this world will agree that the officer did wrong, and he will lose his job.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3534
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #18 - Sep 9th, 2018 at 8:36pm
Print Post  
SnarkySack wrote on Sep 7th, 2018 at 4:00pm:
Quote:
Hopefully, I don't have to comment on the appropriateness of the tasing itself.  No libertarian would disagree with my opinion of that.



GEMorton wrote Today at 12:37pm:
Quote:
This one does. The cop had two basic options:

1. Allow the thief to escape;

2. Stop the thief.

If he elects to stop her, he has two more options:

1. Taser her;

2. Grab her bodily and carry her to the manager's office.

Which of those options do you prefer?

Every person may use reasonable force to protect his property from thieves. It doesn't matter whether the thief is 10 years old or 40 years old, though how much force is reasonable may vary with the age and stature of the thief.

Are you suggesting that the cop's use of force wasn't reasonable? If you are, what force would have been reasonable?

Or are you suggesting that 11 year-olds may steal with impunity?

A couple of details on this case: 1. The cop told the girl, "This is why there are no grocery stores in black neighborhoods." So he is being excoriated for making a "predjudicial (i.e., a politically incorrect) comment." Even though the cop himself is black.

2. The girl was indeed a thief. When the cops searched her backpack they found $53 worth of shoplifted goods, including the backpack itself.

Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 2:00pm:
Tasers are quite dangerous and will simply kill some people. In any event, they are extremely painful and make good torture devices if the torture victim doesn't die.

No thief (much less a juvenile shoplifter), even after conviction, would be subjected to tasing as a punishment.

It's a bedrock of civilized law that the punishment fit the crime, and this punishment, administered before the crime was proved in court, was excessive.

Yes, catch her if you can.


I have to celebrate when Jeff agrees with me.  I find nothing to fault in his reply.

I also withdraw my statement that "no libertarian can disagree" that using a taser on a child is inappropriate.  I strongly believe that, but it is a human rights belief more so than a libertarian one. 

GEMorton, I'm interested in your statement that the officers only option besides the taser (or letting the thief go) was to carry her to the manager's office?  Why the manager's office and not jail?

Obviously, the reason is that the officer was working for the store, and not for the public that granted him his police power.  He was granted a government officer by the citizens though their elected representatives.  That includes the parents of that child.  They commissioned him so that he could work on their behalf, not shock their child under orders from Kroger or whatever the store was.

I have no issue with police moonlighting as security.  But let them leave their uniforms and badges at home and wear the uniform of the company that hires them.
  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GEMorton
Libertarian Senior Member
****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 252
Joined: Aug 24th, 2015
Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #19 - Sep 10th, 2018 at 1:51pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 5:33pm:
You mistake being suspected and accused of a crime with being guilty, and seem unaware of the longstanding theory in our law that requires that the force used to prevent a crime or apprehend a suspect be proportional to the severity of the crime that is suspected to have been committed.


I know of no such "proportionality" laws applicable to use of force. In general, use of force statutes allow "reasonable" force, and reasonable force is the minimum force required to stop the crime, end the threat, or apprehend the perpetrator. I.e., police may use as much force to apprehend a shoplifter stealing a six pack of beer as one stealing a Rolex watch or a Ferrari race car.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/r/reasonable-force/

Quote:
You can tase someone who you justifiably fear is endangering your life or physical safety, otherwise you can't.


Not so. Cops can tase anyone committing any crime, if that is the minimum force they can employ to effect the arrest.

https://www.policeone.com/police-products/less-lethal/articles/283115006-What-co...

Quote:
Yes, the police can use physical force, including deadly force, when a suspect is resisting arrest and endangering their persons, and they can even use deadly force if a suspect is fleeing the scene of a murder, but tasing children suspected of shoplifting is not an approved law enforcement technique.


Not so. See above.

There is some question whether use of the taser in this case was the minimum force necessary to apprehend the 11-year old shoplifter. He could, presumably, have chased her down and seized her bodily, which surely would also have generated complaints, especially if she suffered some injury in the process. But he had every right to apprehend her, and to use whatever force was necessary (but no more) to accomplish that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 12
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy