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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam. (Read 2372 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #290 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 1:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 10:10am:
You fail to understand how consent is given in populations of diverse individuals.


Because there is no consent, only those with the most power/numbers/deceptiveness/friends getting their way.

If I don't consent to you punching me, but your buddy says it's okay, we're now living in a "community of diverse individuals" so might numbers makes right.

Maybe you'll say three isn't enough. But how many is enough? 40? 50? What's the threshold where the rules change to your non-absolutist Nosferatu games which you make up as you go along so you can ridicule people for not understanding? Or don't you understand them yourself? If you do, where's the line?

Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 10:10am:
Which makes me wonder, if the majority (but not all) of the people in my community acceded to your persuasion and voted to abolish taxation, would that not be aggression against the will of those who wanted to retain taxation as a useful tool?


No. But it would still be bullying.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #291 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:34pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 1:46pm:
Because there is no consent, only those with the most power/numbers/deceptiveness/friends getting their way.

If I don't consent to you punching me, but your buddy says it's okay, we're now living in a "community of diverse individuals" so might numbers makes right.

Maybe you'll say three isn't enough. But how many is enough? 40? 50? What's the threshold where the rules change to your non-absolutist Nosferatu games which you make up as you go along so you can ridicule people for not understanding? Or don't you understand them yourself? If you do, where's the line?


That you agree with Red that consent can never be granted and therefore no government can ever be legitimate is not a surprise to me.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #292 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:34pm:
That you agree with Red that consent can never be granted and therefore no government can ever be legitimate is not a surprise to me.


No, I don't. I agree with you that it's fine to take my money and give it to schools. I'm just trying to understand why.

What I said was that if one person doesn't want to give up his money, and someone takes it, it's not consent. I didn't say it was necessarily illegitimate to take it anyway.

So what's the magic number these non-absolutes start to apply and "communities" can decide to take some peoples' money and use it to benefit others? I know it applies now, with 300 million people in America. I also know that it wouldn't apply with just two people.

Can you put a finer point on the number?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #293 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:40pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:48pm:
No, I don't. I agree with you that it's fine to take my money and give it to schools. I'm just trying to understand why.

Because it's a good idea to offer every child the opportunity to get at least a basic education, and property taxes funding schools proved to be a very good workable solution.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #294 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:48pm:
What I said was that if one person doesn't want to give up his money, and someone takes it, it's not consent. I didn't say it was necessarily illegitimate to take it anyway.

In my thinking, government without consent is illegitimate.

If you agree that legitimate governments can be created, but imagine that they can't be granted the power to tax, then you are talking in circles, because that legitimate government can't exist without the power to tax.

Why bother to create a government and not give it the essential tools it needs to accomplish the purposes you set for it?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #295 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:47pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:48pm:
Can you put a finer point on the number?
If two people decide to create a government and have it serve them, I don't see any philosophical reason to prevent them, but it seems pretty silly. Smiley

But anyway, the theory is, taxation is only legitimate if the expenditure of the tax serves the entire community, and that everyone in the community should contribute at least a small amount in some way. (Edit: If you live in the community and rent your home, you pay property taxes through your rent.)

That's part of what's wrong with the five people in the elevator. Three or four of them decide to distribute one person's M&Ms when none of the rest of them are contributing anything.
  
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #296 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 8:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
If two people decide to create a government and have it serve them, I don't see any philosophical reason to prevent them, but it seems pretty silly. Smiley


Sure. Let's say they're not on very good terms and they hire a representative to decide their rules for them.

The representative promptly decides that person A may kill person B.

Does that make it right?

Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
But anyway, the theory is, taxation is only legitimate if the expenditure of the tax serves the entire community,


Public school actively harms people like me. Every time I bring this up, you go, "oh boo-hoo go cry to your mummy".

...Suggesting you don't really believe this. You believe in saying this, so the many can bully the few.

Aside from me, it doesn't benefit the working class who are paying for the businesses' applicants to be pre-trained. It doesn't benefit those who would scrimp and save and pay for school for their kids - all it does is dump competition on them, while making them pay for it. It only benefits the poor, and the rich, and those are the ones supporting it.

Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:47pm:
and that everyone in the community should contribute at least a small amount in some way. (Edit: If you live in the community and rent your home, you pay property taxes through your rent.)

That's part of what's wrong with the five people in the elevator. Three or four of them decide to distribute one person's M&Ms when none of the rest of them are contributing anything.


Alright, you've sold me. Hold a vote. Only count the people paying positive taxes (they must pay into the system more than they get out of it).

If they agree to universal K-12, fine, as long as it doesn't harm me (which public school in its present state does). You said everyone should benefit, but I'll take just not being actively harmed.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #297 - Oct 21st, 2018 at 7:09am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 8:02pm:
Sure. Let's say they're not on very good terms and they hire a representative to decide their rules for them.

The representative promptly decides that person A may kill person B.

Does that make it right?


Is infinite land available?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #298 - Oct 21st, 2018 at 7:11am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 8:02pm:
Public school actively harms people like me. Every time I bring this up, you go, "oh boo-hoo go cry to your mummy".

A really good voucher plan could have kept you out of public schools, while acting to improve public schools.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #299 - Oct 21st, 2018 at 7:15am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 8:02pm:
Alright, you've sold me. Hold a vote. Only count the people paying positive taxes (they must pay into the system more than they get out of it).

We have a republican form of government in my town, where elected representatives are empowered to make laws, and all adults who live in the town get to vote for those representatives. I think it would be a very bad idea to turn it into a democracy.
  
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