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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam. (Read 2427 times)
Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #50 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:35pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 10:45am:
Nope. But I am making the assumption that the child was old enough to know that stealing is wrong. That is all that is required.


You will not succeed in teaching them that stealing has consequences unless you are prepared to impose those consequences, immediately and consistently, and those consequences are unpleasant. Otherwise your lecturing will be seen for what it is --- an empty threat.


Force exerted to stop a crime is not a punishment for committing it. But what is the basis for your opinion that X amount of force "exceeds" the crime it is employed to thwart? How do you do that weighing?

What she did was certainly a misdemeanor, and there are no punishments for any misdemeanors equivalent to tasing, in fact no corporal punishments in our system for any crimes.

Only "reasonable force" is permitted to stop misdemeanor crimes. You think tasing is "reasonable force" to use against a child shoplifter. I don't.

If you want the laws changed, work for that. Don't give police free reign to club petty thieves to the ground.

  
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #51 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:40pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 11:24am:
Then as a private security guard, he had no authority to transport a child or anyone else into the Kroger manager's office.


Of course he does. So does any security guard, or any victim of any crime. He has all the authority he needs --- his own --- to stop the crime and deliver the perpetrator to justice.

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PS:  The reason it should be ended immediately is that wearing their uniforms while off-duty working at Kroger makes them forget that they are no more law-enforcement in that role than are the checkers and the stockers.


All of whom have the same rights and could also seize and hold the thief.

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If Kroger has a right to hold a child or an adult they suspect of stealing, then they can pay anyone else to be their agent.  By wearing their uniform and badge, they represent themselves as law-enforcement.


So what? Every employee of the store has the same powers.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #52 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:41pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 11:24am:
Then as a private security guard, he had no authority to transport a child or anyone else into the Kroger manager's office.
He was on private property acting as security for the property owners. If he had simply caught her before she got out the door, he could certainly have justifiably taken her into the office to see the manager and await the manager's decision as to what to do with her.

In any case, a citizen walking by could have grabbed the girl and taken her back into the store if there was reasonable cause (like a security guard shouting "Stop that girl!") to believe she'd committed a crime.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #53 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:45pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 11:24am:
PS:  The reason it should be ended immediately is that wearing their uniforms while off-duty working at Kroger makes them forget that they are no more law-enforcement in that role than are the checkers and the stockers.
Private citizens have the authority to make arrests under the common law.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/citizen-s-arrest.html


  
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #54 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
Only "reasonable force" is permitted to stop misdemeanor crimes. You think tasing is "reasonable force" to use against a child shoplifter. I don't.


Yes. "Reasonable force" is the minimum force required to stop the crime, regardless of the age of the criminal.

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Don't give police free reign to club petty thieves to the ground.


They may only club petty thieves (or any other lawbreaker) to the ground if that is the only way to make the arrest (and they can convince their bosses and perhaps a judge of that).
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #55 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:09pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:46pm:
Yes. "Reasonable force" is the minimum force required to stop the crime, regardless of the age of the criminal.


They may only club petty thieves (or any other lawbreaker) to the ground if that is the only way to make the arrest (and they can convince their bosses and perhaps a judge of that).
Right, and if the only way to stop a running shoplifter is to shoot them, is that "reasonable force"?

You will have to convince a Judge of that, and you'll probable learn that "reasonable force" doesn't mean "whatever it takes" when the crime is less than a felony.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #56 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:45pm:
Private citizens have the authority to make arrests under the common law.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/citizen-s-arrest.html




Your link refers to felonies and specifies that force be reasonable.  Since the police officer (who you claim is acting as a private citizen) has a pistol, a taser and perhaps a night stick, he is hardly using reasonable force on an eleven year old suspected shoplifter.

What else ya got?


  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #57 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 2:41pm:
He was on private property acting as security for the property owners. If he had simply caught her before she got out the door, he could certainly have justifiably taken her into the office to see the manager and await the manager's decision as to what to do with her.

In any case, a citizen walking by could have grabbed the girl and taken her back into the store if there was reasonable cause (like a security guard shouting "Stop that girl!") to believe she'd committed a crime.


Why back to the store?  Put aside whether the person acting as a private citizen but dressed as a public official has the right to hold her for police, do you really advocate that all I have to is wait outside my house, see a child passing by and yell for a stranger to help drag her inside, claiming she stole a pie from my window sill?

Lots of luck with that one, Jeff.

  

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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #58 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:28pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:17pm:
Your link refers to felonies and specifies that force be reasonable.  Since the police officer (who you claim is acting as a private citizen) has a pistol, a taser and perhaps a night stick, he is hardly using reasonable force on an eleven year old suspected shoplifter.

What else ya got?


The linked article also refers to Breaches of the Peace and  Citizens Arrests and says this about Reasonable Force in Citizens Arrests-

"Despite the fact that citizens arrests do not carry the same constitutional requirements as a typical arrest, individuals must only use the amount of force that is reasonable and necessary to make the arrest. Just what exactly constitutes the reasonable and necessary amount of force depends on the facts surrounding each arrest. Juries will usually examine the facts surrounding a citizens arrest and make the determination of whether it involved excessive force."

I still agree with you that tasing child shoplifters amounts to unreasonable force.

Edit: Here's a video of a 17 year old being tased-

https://www.dailywire.com/news/6437/sickening-video-cop-who-tasered-kid-coma-sen...

Here's the Cincinnati police force policy-

Cincinnati police department procedure state that officers can taser children as young as seven and someone as old as 70.

However, it also states that 'an individual simply fleeing from an officer, absent additional justification, does not warrant the use of the TASER.'
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #59 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 6:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 3:28pm:
The linked article also refers to Breaches of the Peace and  Citizens Arrests and says this about Reasonable Force in Citizens Arrests-

"Despite the fact that citizens arrests do not carry the same constitutional requirements as a typical arrest, individuals must only use the amount of force that is reasonable and necessary to make the arrest."


That is what I told you earlier.

Quote:
Just what exactly constitutes the reasonable and necessary amount of force depends on the facts surrounding each arrest. Juries will usually examine the facts surrounding a citizens arrest and make the determination of whether it involved excessive force."


Of course. Those facts will turn primarily on the amount and type of resistance the suspect attempts. They do not include the type of offense of which the subject is suspected. Cops may use whatever force is necessary to subdue a DUI suspect, a shoplifter, a bank robber, or a rapist.

Quote:
"However, it also states that 'an individual simply fleeing from an officer, absent additional justification, does not warrant the use of the TASER.'"


If that is the policy of that department then those cops are not doing their jobs. In any event no such restriction applies to private citizens defending their property.
  
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