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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam. (Read 2430 times)
GEMorton
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #80 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 11:32am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 1:07am:
Me too. But I recognise that the thief's life is not mine. It's his.


Yes, it is. But my duty to respect that right of his ends when he violates my rights by stealing from me.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #81 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:29pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 11:32am:
Yes, it is. But my duty to respect that right of his ends when he violates my rights by stealing from me.
Killing someone who is stealing from you will get you in lots of legal trouble. You should add that as a disclaimer every time you are advocating shooting thieves in any but the most extraordinary situations.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #82 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:30pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 11:32am:
Yes, it is. But my duty to respect that right of his ends when he violates my rights by stealing from me.


I'd accept this if it hadn't been called ridiculous every time I suggested it. Think of some counter-arguments to the objections voiced. Until then, you're only being indulged by the forum - they don't actually agree with what you say. You're just popular, and being popular isn't a good argument.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #83 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:48pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:30pm:
I'd accept this if it hadn't been called ridiculous every time I suggested it. Think of some counter-arguments to the objections voiced. Until then, you're only being indulged by the forum - they don't actually agree with what you say. You're just popular, and being popular isn't a good argument.
The foundational philosophy that GE is using is correct, people who violate the rights of others lose the right to have their rights respected.

Someone who commits grand larceny may lose their right to liberty for a number of years, but a judgement has been made in civilized law that theft no more merits the death penalty than it merits having your hands cut off.

You can disagree, and there are always specific instances that fall outside the general rule, but it has long been held in civilized nations that theft doesn't merit the loss of your right to live.
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #84 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 2:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:29pm:
Killing someone who is stealing from you will get you in lots of legal trouble.


It might, depending upon the laws and ideologies of prosecutors in your state. So will doing many other things you have every right to do.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #85 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 2:07pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:48pm:
The foundational philosophy that GE is using is correct, people who violate the rights of others lose the right to have their rights respected.


You don't really believe that, otherwise you would have said so when I suggested it. You and everyone else agreed previously with the idea of inalienable rights.

https://parrishmiller.com/blog/inalienable-rights-non-aggression-principle/
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Rights which are not inalienable are not really rights at all, they are but temporary protections subject to revocation and violation.

The NAP's differentiation between the initiation of force and defensive force is not an open-ended permission slip to use violence against anyone who has ever violated the NAP themselves, rather it is a very narrow allowance for the temporary use of minimal force in order to terminate active and ongoing aggression. Self-defense is justified. Retributive aggression is not.


Every time you state a principle, I end up losing and changing my view. Then you flip-flop again.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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GEMorton
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #86 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 2:34pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:48pm:
Someone who commits grand larceny may lose their right to liberty for a number of years, but a judgement has been made in civilized law that theft no more merits the death penalty than it merits having your hands cut off.


You continue to confound the difference between punishment for a crime (especially one imposed by the State), with prevention of or resistance to a crime by the victim. I agree that the State ought not impose the death penalty for theft (indeed, no government should be granted the power to take citizens' lives for any reason). Instead, it should force the thief, upon conviction, to make restitution to the victim and to the State.

The notion, BTW, that deadly force cannot be used to protect property is a latter-day doctrine, which began to be asserted early in the 20th century by "progressives." Some states embraced that doctrine, others did not. Here is Texas's law:

https://lawofselfdefense.com/statute/texas-sec-9-42-deadly-force-to-protect-prop...

Moreover, in states which make such use of force illegal juries frequently acquit the person charged (I gave an example from my state earlier).
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #87 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 4:53pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 2:02pm:
It might, depending upon the laws and ideologies of prosecutors in your state. So will doing many other things you have every right to do.
You contend you have a right to kill thieves?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #88 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 4:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 2:07pm:
You don't really believe that, otherwise you would have said so when I suggested it. You and everyone else agreed previously with the idea of inalienable rights.
Inalienable does not mean absolute. If you murder your Mom, your right to live is forfeit.
  
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #89 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:00pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 2:34pm:
You continue to confound the difference between punishment for a crime (especially one imposed by the State), with prevention of or resistance to a crime by the victim.
I'm not confused about that at all GE.

What you don't seem to be aware of is that civilized people have created civilized systems of law that say you can't kill thieves.

If you confront a thief with a gun, and the thief advances toward you, shoot the thief.

If you see a thief in your home and you see a weapon, shoot the thief.

If a child shoplifter runs out of your store, do not shoot her.

Can you see the difference?
  
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