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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam. (Read 697 times)
Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #90 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:03pm
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 2:34pm:
Did you actually read it and the laws it links to? It's a very conditional right, even in Texas.


  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #91 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 8:35pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:00pm:
I'm not confused about that at all GE.

What you don't seem to be aware of is that civilized people have created civilized systems of law that say you can't kill thieves.

If you confront a thief with a gun, and the thief advances toward you, shoot the thief.



This is the key to your true answer to my question about government using deadly force to collect taxes.  The answer you are so carefully avoiding giving.

You believe that not paying taxes is theft, pure and simple.  Because you believe that lawmakers in a representative republic have the right and the ability to convert a portion of my property into government property.  Not just in the legal sense, but that there is actually a kind of supernatural transformation akin to the Catholic belief that communion wine literally becomes the blood of Christ.  If it is true that my property is thus transformed into public property, then your theory that I steal by not paying taxes makes sense.  The money in my pocket or bank account is now the taxman's money so keeping it is theft.

But . . . you can't bring yourself to say that using deadly force against a tax refuser is moral.  That's because you aren't really convinced that your tax transubstantiation theory is correct.  Plus you have already stated that human life is more important than property.  Killing a person to stop a theft is immoral.   

So you hedge your bet by assuming that a homeowner - having his home condemned to auction for failure to pay taxes - will be "reasonable" when police approach is house to evict him.   In other words, the sight of a gun and badge will convince him that he has no chance and he will meekly abandon his home to the taxman. 

If he resists, then the police have the right to shoot.  Not to force the payment of taxes, of course, but in "self defense."  You count on the owner knowing that the police will "defend themselves" (in the home owners own home, mind you) and his being unwilling to go to jail or to the morgue.  You hope no one gets killed, but you accept a few deaths as collateral damage in your desire to educate the children.

That thought is not unique and you mustn't feel guilty for thinking it.  It is at the heart of every tax collection scheme since the roving bands of marauders thought of taxes.  You must embrace it if you embrace taxes because the two concepts are inseparable. 




 


  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
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GEMorton
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #92 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 9:47pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 4:53pm:
You contend you have a right to kill thieves?


Yes, if that's what it takes to prevent or stop the theft.
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #93 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:00pm:
I'm not confused about that at all GE.

What you don't seem to be aware of is that civilized people have created civilized systems of law that say you can't kill thieves.


Well, no. Civilized people (in some places) have created Pollyanna, "progressive" systems of law based on the premise that thieves are hapless victims of "social injustice" who have no alternative but to steal to survive. Hence preventing them from stealing or punishing them would merely compound the injustice.

Civilized people, BTW, also created fascism, marxism, theocracies, and most of the other idiocies and tyrannies that have plagued human history.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #94 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 11:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 4:55pm:
Inalienable does not mean absolute. If you murder your Mom, your right to live is forfeit.


And what do you do if I suggest that anyone's rights should ever be forfeit? You tell me to kill myself.

I suggested the same exact thing Morton is suggesting and you shot it down. Your case was flawless. If you can't come up with a refutation to your own words that holds water, your previous refutation stands, regardless of the fact that someone you like better is saying the same thing.

You may say "I agree" or "I disagree" but you don't really understand what that means. You're a pure tribalist who only sees allies and enemies. You don't understand the need for consistency in any philosophy; it's just what feels right at the moment. Justification comes after.

This is why you "agree" with Morton but still insist that people can't just kill thieves. Morton is making the same case I was: People who violate rights* have voided their own.

*rights here meaning the duty on others to respect those rights (in fact, just assume I mean this every time I refer to rights)

You get that I'm now arguing what you refuted my arguments with, right? You seem to have forgotten your own positions.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #95 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 7:32am
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:03pm:
Well, no. Civilized people (in some places) have created Pollyanna, "progressive" systems of law based on the premise that thieves are hapless victims of "social injustice" who have no alternative but to steal to survive. Hence preventing them from stealing or punishing them would merely compound the injustice.

Civilized people, BTW, also created fascism, marxism, theocracies, and most of the other idiocies and tyrannies that have plagued human history.
I don't think civilized people can possibly create systems that involve the government forcing people to do what the government says they must do.

Civilized people did not create Hitler's system of National Socialism.

You think it's moral to kill thieves and that doing so should not be punished.

What nations/systems of government have agreed or do agree with you?

I'll answer. Authoritarian governments, systems ruled by tyrants. The King would have you killed for stealing one of His rabbits. Communists will kill you for stealing from the collective by claiming property for yourself.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #96 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 7:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 11:09pm:
And what do you do if I suggest that anyone's rights should ever be forfeit? You tell me to kill myself.

Have you bought your Mother a gun yet?

I do think it's a good idea for you to consider suicide as a moral way to solve your internal conflict between wanting to respect people's rights and wanting to tyrannize everyone. As an admitted evil sociopath, don't you think you are a potential danger to others?

Of course, being civilized in the U.S., the law will wait until you act on your evil sociopathic ideas before having you arrested, but what if that leads to you killing some innocent person first?

Just consider it from a moral standpoint is all I'm asking you to do. Kiss
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #97 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 11:41am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 15th, 2018 at 7:38am:
Have you bought your Mother a gun yet?

I do think it's a good idea for you to consider suicide as a moral way to solve your internal conflict between wanting to respect people's rights and wanting to tyrannize everyone. As an admitted evil sociopath, don't you think you are a potential danger to others?

Of course, being civilized in the U.S., the law will wait until you act on your evil sociopathic ideas before having you arrested, but what if that leads to you killing some innocent person first?

Just consider it from a moral standpoint is all I'm asking you to do. Kiss


See this pure tribalism you're demonstrating? Your morality shifts on a dime with your feelings.

You don't have a position about the benefit of the doubt - not really. If you're otherising someone, then they should die before they kill someone innocent. If they're in-group, then it doesn't matter how much of a risk they present to others.

I don't have that. Maybe in the future, everyone will respect rights for the right reason: The intellectual reason.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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GEMorton
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #98 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 12:26pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 15th, 2018 at 7:32am:
Civilized people did not create Hitler's system of National Socialism.


Well, you're again using the word "civilized" in that honorific and morally presumptuous sense. Per the dictionary definition the German people were as civilized as they come.

CIVILIZED:

1. Having a highly developed society and culture.
2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable: terrorist acts that shocked the civilized world.
3. Marked by refinement in taste and manners; cultured.

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=civilized

Quote:
You think it's moral to kill thieves and that doing so should not be punished.


Yes, if that is the only way to stop the theft.

Quote:
What nations/systems of government have agreed or do agree with you?


Not relevant (that's an ad populum argument), but quite a few, including the US until the 20th century. Here is the Espy file, which shows all (or most) legal executions in the US since 1608.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/ESPYyear.pdf

Consider only the records after 1776 (the colonies were not the US until then). Note the number for theft, burglary, arson, and horse stealing --- all property crimes, especially before 1870 or so. Keep in mind that these were legal executions. The list does not include thieves killed in the act by victims, or by vigilantes, for which the killers were seldom prosecuted.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Cop Tases Eleven Year Old Shoplifter. NOT Caught on Body Cam.
Reply #99 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 1:39pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 15th, 2018 at 11:41am:
See this pure tribalism you're demonstrating? Your morality shifts on a dime with your feelings.

You don't have a position about the benefit of the doubt - not really. If you're otherising someone, then they should die before they kill someone innocent. If they're in-group, then it doesn't matter how much of a risk they present to others.

I don't have that. Maybe in the future, everyone will respect rights for the right reason: The intellectual reason.
You told me you are an evil sociopath, and I have no reason to disbelieve you.
  
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