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SkyChief
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #10 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 11:38am
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it's and old, worn-out cliché, but quite appropriate here:

"Big government isn't the answer to the problem, it IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Another example of an over-reaching government poking it's big, red clown nose where it doesn't belong.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #11 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 6:47pm
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I forget... Did I mention that probable cause was required before the fox could have legally been taken?
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #12 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 8:40pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 12:44am:
Anyway, it was Morton who was talking about objective value. The objective value of a pet is negative. You pour money into it and unless it's a working animal like a horse or mule, or you were planning on eating it, you get nothing quantifiable in return.


I don't think you understood the statement you quoted. To repeat it:

"While what counts as a benefit, like the value of a thing, is subjective and relative to valuers, whether or not X is of value, or confers a benefit upon, Alfie is an objective matter."

All values are subjective and relative, i.e., nothing has any value other than the value some valuer assigns to it. Value is not a property of things; it is a relation between a thing and a valuer. There is no such thing as "intrinsic value." Hence a thing can have many values, as many as there are valuers.

But that item X has a value V to P is an objective matter --- the value someone assigns to a thing is given by what he proves willing to give up --- time, money, effort, some other good --- to obtain it or retain it, and we can observe that (in many cases).

In wrongful death suits a plaintiff may ask for damages for "loss of consortium." Like damages for pain and suffering, there is no objective way to quantify those losses, giving juries wide discretion on how to compensate them. One can perhaps approach a figure by asking, "What would this plaintiff have given up to prevent that loss?"

Someone mentioned that many people consider pets family members. But as far as I know, no state allows loss of consortium claims for pets wrongfully killed.

With respect for your question, the liar is the aggressor. From your story it sounds like whoever actually killed the fox acted out of negligence, rather than malice (some sort of communication failure). So they would be liable for tort damages. The liar should be prosecuted for filing a false report to police.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #13 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 10:21am
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 8:40pm:
"While what counts as a benefit, like the value of a thing, is subjective and relative to valuers, whether or not X is of value, or confers a benefit upon, Alfie is an objective matter."


And a pet does not confer an objective benefit on anyone. If you can say I am objectively better off because of the police and risk reduction, I can make that same evaluation with regard to a pet and come to the opposite conclusion: A pet confers no benefit.

SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 11:38am:
Another example of an over-reaching government poking it's big, red clown nose where it doesn't belong.


So your final answer on the aggressor is the police, correct?

Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 7:38am:
The neighbor was wrong to lie, and the police were wrong to take the fox without first learning the truth, which shouldn't have been that hard to establish. Animal control officers/personal were also wrong to kill the fox without any evidence that it was actually dangerous.


The question is not who was wrong. Yes, it's wrong to lie, but last I checked, the law shouldn't punish liars.

The question is: Who is the aggressor? Who did something the law should redress?

So far only Morton has given me an answer.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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GEMorton
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #14 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 10:28am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 10:21am:
And a pet does not confer an objective benefit on anyone. If you can say I am objectively better off because of the police and risk reduction, I can make that same evaluation with regard to a pet and come to the opposite conclusion: A pet confers no benefit.


You're mistaken. If a person spends time with a pet, spends money on it, would spend more if necessary to keep it healthy, then it confers a benefit on that person, and that benefit is objectively quantifiable.

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Yes, it's wrong to lie, but last I checked, the law shouldn't punish liars.


Yes it should, in some cases, and does. E.g., it punishes libel, perjury, and also filing false police reports.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #15 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 11:01am
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GEMorton wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 10:28am:
You're mistaken. If a person spends time with a pet, spends money on it, would spend more if necessary to keep it healthy, then it confers a benefit on that person, and that benefit is objectively quantifiable.


I could use the same argument to prove I'm better off without public school. I would pay to get rid of it. When I was a kid, I would have given my right arm to get rid of it. I would have shortened my life by half to get rid of it.

Some people, no doubt, have expended significant time, money, and effort to rid themselves of police protection as well. Those who have done this without the "benefit that doesn't count" (being derived from aggression) weighing into the equation include Anarcho-Capitalists.

You can't dance back and forth from the idea of objective benefit existing, and being able to subjectively value something into being an objective benefit, as is the case for a pet.

GEMorton wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 10:28am:
Yes it should, in some cases, and does. E.g., it punishes libel, perjury, and also filing false police reports.


https://mises.org/wire/non-crime-lying-fbi
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Perversely, however, lying to the US Federal Government’s version of the KGB (the FBI) — which apparently does its own share of lying —  is illegal.


https://mises.org/wire/problem-fraud-fraud-threat-and-contract-breach-types-aggr...
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But clearly merely lying is not a rights violation.

  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #16 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 7:42am
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Speaking of public schools, check this out-

http://www.speroforum.com/a/XCIOVCGJBQ49/83979-How-a-school-district-got-a-20-mi...

The education budget provides $12,000/student, but it looks like not much of it goes to actually teaching students.
  
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GEMorton
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #17 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 11:20am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 11:01am:
You can't dance back and forth from the idea of objective benefit existing, and being able to subjectively value something into being an objective benefit, as is the case for a pet.


You're apparently having trouble with this concept. The values of all things are subjective and relative; value is a pseudo-property imputed to various things by some valuer. There is no such thing as an intrinsic, or "objective value," but it can be objectively true that person P assigns value V to some object X.

If he does, than that object, X, provides some benefit to him. Now, to say that P values X, and derives a benefit from X, implies that if P has X, he would prefer not to lose it, and would give up something to retain it. Hence, anything that reduces the risk that P will lose X benefits P, because he places a value on X. That latter benefit to P is objective; it can be determined empirically.

Does this help?
   
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #18 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:08pm
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I didn't say objective value, I said objective benefit.

I can subjectively value anything as much as I want. If you destroy that thing, you're not liable for my emotional nonsense; you're liable for making right any objective benefit you removed from me.

If you total my car, buy me another car that's just as good. I don't get to say, "but I loved it" to get more from you than you owe me, even if it was true. If I invested more in the car than it was worth, that's on me, not you.

You're the one who used lost wages as an example of something a murderer would owe the family. I agree.

And again, I could use your argument to prove that public school's value, to me, is negative. The value of police protection, to many people, is also negative, considering that the police are much more likely to catch them speeding than assist them against an aggressor.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #19 - Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 13th, 2018 at 12:08pm:
I didn't say objective value, I said objective benefit.

I can subjectively value anything as much as I want. If you destroy that thing, you're not liable for my emotional nonsense; you're liable for making right any objective benefit you removed from me.

If you total my car, buy me another car that's just as good. I don't get to say, "but I loved it" to get more from you than you owe me, even if it was true. If I invested more in the car than it was worth, that's on me, not you.

You're the one who used lost wages as an example of something a murderer would owe the family. I agree.

And again, I could use your argument to prove that public school's value, to me, is negative. The value of police protection, to many people, is also negative, considering that the police are much more likely to catch them speeding than assist them against an aggressor.
Discouraging people from speeding will sometimes save their lives and the lives of others. Reckless driving is considered aggression by the law.

Didn't this start out with the value of a beloved pet?

How about if you murder my wife? Are you assigning objective value to a persons life? If there is such a value, everyone possesses it equally, but didn't my wife have some additional subjective value to me and our children?

What about pain and suffering awards? Say you are careless and injure me severely. You should pay my medical bills and lost wages, but what about the weeks I spent in pain and the lost time in my life? Of no value?
  
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