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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #160 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 7:34am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 11:49pm:
He considers the entire scenario impossible.



Your original fox scenario is highly improbable, not impossible.

While I'm thinking of unfounded allegations, which were at the heart of the attempt to derail the confirmation of Judge Kavanaugh, here's the legal definition of allegation-

https://thelawdictionary.org/allegation/

Of course confirmation hearings in the Senate are not legal proceedings like trials, but with so many Senators being lawyers, you'd think they would expect someone who comes before them with allegations to subsequently set about offering proof...
  
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Josh
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #161 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 4:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 9th, 2018 at 12:39am:
Challenge: Find who the aggressor is in this scenario.



So this couple lives in an area where owning a domestic fox is legal. They never let it out of the house.

After the couple gets threats, which threaten to report the fox as a dangerous animal, the police get an anonymous bite report, which is suspect because the fox never left the house.

The police remove the fox from the house and hand it over to animal control, who reports that the fox is friendly and wags its tail whenever they feed it.

Animal control assures the couple they are not going to kill the fox. They say he's being held temporarily to screen for diseases.

The police show up at the couple's house and tell them the fox has been killed. He was euthanised without warning and without proper screening.

Who is the aggressor here?

Obviously the police (assuming all the information you describe is correct and that the fox didn't actually bite anyone)
  

I like big butts and I cannot lie.
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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #162 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 5:31pm
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Josh wrote on Oct 13th, 2018 at 4:55pm:
Obviously the police (assuming all the information you describe is correct and that the fox didn't actually bite anyone)
Your arguments have convinced me you are correct, but, which police?

It was never clear to me whether a SWAT team was involved or not, and when Animal Control Officers might have actually become involved...

The police didn't just raid the Vixen's house on a tip that she was there did they? Maybe the Mayor had his people gin up a warrant to kill your fox and search (and trash) your home.

In that case, the Mayor would be the aggressor, right?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #163 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 9:06pm
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Josh wrote on Oct 13th, 2018 at 4:55pm:
Obviously the police (assuming all the information you describe is correct and that the fox didn't actually bite anyone)


Actually you're wrong. Since owning a fox, tiger, chicken (etc.) is not a right, and in fact an illegitimate positive "right" that actually violates the rights of others, it was the fox owner who aggressed, by owning the fox.

SkyChief wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:18pm:
I sense a lot of frustration here.

My gun poses no threat to you or any of my neighbors.

It is locked, and its ammunition is stored in a separate, secure location.

Your chicken is a potential risk to the neighbors.  Someone's pet fox might want to eat it.  Chickens are notorious for being host to Salmonella bacteria, avian influenza virus (AI), Fowl Pox,  Necrotic Enteritis, et al....       Yuck!! 

Guns = SAFE   Smiley  Smiley

Chickens =  DEATH & DISEASES  Sad  Smiley


Jeff wrote on Jul 4th, 2014 at 8:37am:
I raise chickens. If you want to buy one, I'll sell it to you. If you steal one, I'll file a complaint and have you arrested.
I don't raise my chickens in a residential neighborhood. If I did, they would constitute a nuisance and possibly a health hazard, and my neighbors would file complaints against me.


You see, when convenient, libertarians should always say that risk = aggression.

When inconvenient, risk does not equal aggression.

The correct answer, if you do not have a pet fox, is that even if it poses a .000000001% risk to you, is to self-benefit and eliminate that risk.

Simply define that risk as aggression. Then those that deal with that risk are simply defending.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #164 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 7:47am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 13th, 2018 at 9:06pm:
Actually you're wrong. Since owning a fox, tiger, chicken (etc.) is not a right, and in fact an illegitimate positive "right" that actually violates the rights of others, it was the fox owner who aggressed, by owning the fox.




Here is an essential part of your original scenario-

"So this couple lives in an area where owning a domestic fox is legal."

Your tortured "reasoning" leads to the conclusion that no one can own anything unless they are first granted permission, presumably by the government?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #165 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 7:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 13th, 2018 at 9:06pm:
You see, when convenient, libertarians should always say that risk = aggression.

When inconvenient, risk does not equal aggression.

So, it's convenient for me to say that evil delusional sociopaths are a risk, so you are committing aggression just by existing? And you should be "dealt with"?

You misunderstand that inanimate objects like guns are not in and of themselves any sort of risk, rather it's people, who may mishandle or misuse them that are the risk.

Wild animals kept as pets are potential risks, because they are capable of acting on their own.

Pet rocks, being unable to act on their own initiative, are not risks, although their owners may use them to commit assault.

A chicken kept in your home is not a health hazard to the community, but it can be a noisy nuisance if it's a rooster and you live in a cheap apartment.

Starting a poultry farm in a residential neighborhood is deemed to be both a health hazard and a nuisance.


  
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The Opposition
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #166 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 11:24am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 14th, 2018 at 7:47am:
Here is an essential part of your original scenario-

"So this couple lives in an area where owning a domestic fox is legal."

Your tortured "reasoning" leads to the conclusion that no one can own anything unless they are first granted permission, presumably by the government?


My reasoning is that libertarians decide what's aggression, not the government.

The government could make punching someone legal, but it would still be aggression.

The government can make owning a fox legal, but if owning a fox, or a chicken, is aggression, the government is powerless to define it otherwise.

Jeff wrote on Oct 14th, 2018 at 7:53am:
So, it's convenient for me to say that evil delusional sociopaths are a risk, so you are committing aggression just by existing? And you should be "dealt with"?


Not only can you do this, and kill me if it pleases you, if you're successful at defining me into aggression just by existing, I would actually be aggressing, again, if I "defend" (not really defence). Though as long as I don't use force, I can still run away.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #167 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 4:37pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 14th, 2018 at 11:24am:
My reasoning is that libertarians decide what's aggression, not the government.

You're making an unfounded assertion lizard... That's not reasoning.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #168 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 14th, 2018 at 11:24am:
Not only can you do this, and kill me if it pleases you, if you're successful at defining me into aggression just by existing
When you defined yourself as an evil sociopath, you claimed to be an entity with great potential to do harm.

In the here and now, you have a right to remain free until you do harm to others or threaten to harm them. Sociopaths have aggressive tendencies.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Find the Aggression - Part 1
Reply #169 - Oct 14th, 2018 at 4:43pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 14th, 2018 at 11:24am:
"...I would actually be aggressing, again, if I "defend" (not really defence).
Red, is schizophrenia associated with sociopathy?
  
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