Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment (Read 416 times)
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7485
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Sep 11th, 2018 at 12:15pm
Print Post  
A village in Switzerland, Rheinau (an hour by train from Zurich), has decided to go ahead with a wealth re-distribution experiment, with a payout of 2,500 francs ($2,570) per month.

Now, $2570 isn't very much money (in Switzerland) because an entry-level grocery store cashier in the city of Basel working 42 hours per week is entitled to about 3,500 francs a month.

Finland has had UBI for a while, now.  Stockton, California has been fooling around with UBI.

Italy is also considering UBI.

The major down-side to any UBI program is the tremendous cost to the taxpayers.  Taxes must be extremely high for any wealth re-distribution plan. In Finland, the income tax is over 60% on incomes over $60k/yr

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/2018/09/10/swiss-village-says-yes-to-2-500-...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7486
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #1 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:01pm
Print Post  
UBI beats welfare, hands-down. If it's instead of welfare, I believe it can work wonders, such as stopping the subsidisation of the irresponsible over the responsible by rewarding them, and only them, with free money.

And it shouldn't be a lot. Food, water, shelter. People should be dirt poor and barely surviving if they don't work. They shouldn't be able to afford a baby.

You could also feasibly eliminate minimum wage if you had UBI. There's no reason to force the businesses to support the workers they employ if the government is already doing that.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7485
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #2 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:08pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
You could also feasibly eliminate minimum wage if you had UBI. There's no reason to force the businesses to support the workers they employ if the government is already doing that.

So, generally speaking,  you think UBI is a good plan?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TYCapitalism
Libertarian Full Member
***
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 52
Location: Mt. Vernon, IL
Joined: Feb 20th, 2014
Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #3 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:10pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 12:15pm:
A village in Switzerland, Rheinau (an hour by train from Zurich), has decided to go ahead with a wealth re-distribution experiment, with a payout of 2,500 francs ($2,570) per month.

Now, $2570 isn't very much money (in Switzerland) because an entry-level grocery store cashier in the city of Basel working 42 hours per week is entitled to about 3,500 francs a month.

Finland has had UBI for a while, now.  Stockton, California has been fooling around with UBI.

Italy is also considering UBI.

The major down-side to any UBI program is the tremendous cost to the taxpayers.  Taxes must be extremely high for any wealth re-distribution plan. In Finland, the income tax is over 60% on incomes over $60k/yr

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/2018/09/10/swiss-village-says-yes-to-2-500-...


These schemes only ever work when the country has valuable resources, and then only for a short while.
  

Help me buy shotguns for women.
https://www.help50.org/donate
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
TYCapitalism
Libertarian Full Member
***
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 52
Location: Mt. Vernon, IL
Joined: Feb 20th, 2014
Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #4 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:15pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:08pm:
So, generally speaking,  you think UBI is a good plan?


Generally speaking it's as absurd as what America currently has with social security, food stamps, medicare/medicaid, and government pensions.

My question is how do we eliminate as much government theft as possible? I would gladly accept a reduction of welfare spending, even if it meant it was continued in a more palatable form.
  

Help me buy shotguns for women.
https://www.help50.org/donate
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7485
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #5 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm
Print Post  
TYCapitalism wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
I would gladly accept a reduction of welfare spending, even if it meant it was continued in a more palatable form.

In your opinion, who should be the ones who need to pay for welfare hand-outs?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TYCapitalism
Libertarian Full Member
***
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 52
Location: Mt. Vernon, IL
Joined: Feb 20th, 2014
Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #6 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:30pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:24pm:
In your opinion, who should be the ones who need to pay for welfare hand-outs?


Literally only those who voluntarily choose to do so. I'm just saying that I view the government as a hostile negotiator, and I'm willing to take baby-steps towards freedom.

I am running a charity, but I would never contemplate compelling others to pay for it in the form of grants.
  

Help me buy shotguns for women.
https://www.help50.org/donate
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3534
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #7 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:38pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:01pm:
UBI beats welfare, hands-down. If it's instead of welfare, I believe it can work wonders, such as stopping the subsidisation of the irresponsible over the responsible by rewarding them, and only them, with free money.

And it shouldn't be a lot. Food, water, shelter. People should be dirt poor and barely surviving if they don't work. They shouldn't be able to afford a baby.


They will have them anyway. What then?

Quote:
You could also feasibly eliminate minimum wage if you had UBI. There's no reason to force the businesses to support the workers they employ if the government is already doing that.


Disagree strongly for several reasons.

Before the government went into the charity business, private charities were very effective at helping the poor to survive and reasonably effective at helping the poor rise above the poverty.  Yet they rarely, if ever, gave direct cash subsidies to the poor. 

Instead they offered soup kitchens where the poor could be fed and shelters where they could sleep and clean themselves.  They also offered donated used clothes for poor who had been living outside.

There were several advantages to this system over our current benefits plus cash payments or the pure cash payments you suggest.  For one thing, the poor can lose the money after we give it to them.  Then what?  Let them starve until the next payment or give them another payment?  Or they can trade their debit card for drugs, leaving themselves and their children still starving and homeless. 

Even if they don't lose it or deliberately waste it, the reason they are poor is due to a string of bad economic decisions.  There is no reason to believe that a free monthly paycheck will suddenly make them into thrifty penny pinchers.  They will likely celebrate each "payday" with revelry and spending sprees and come up short when rent and light bills come due.

If government is to be the source so charity, then let government emulate the very effective model used back when charity was private.  By doing so, they would be able to function off of voluntary contributions the same as private charities did, do and will continue to do until government finally bans them altogether. 



  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TYCapitalism
Libertarian Full Member
***
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 52
Location: Mt. Vernon, IL
Joined: Feb 20th, 2014
Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #8 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:45pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:38pm:
Before the government went into the charity business, private charities were very effective at helping the poor to survive and reasonably effective at helping the poor rise above the poverty.  Yet they rarely, if ever, gave direct cash subsidies to the poor. 

Instead they offered soup kitchens where the poor could be fed and shelters where they could sleep and clean themselves.  They also offered donated used clothes for poor who had been living outside.

There were several advantages to this system over our current benefits plus cash payments or the pure cash payments you suggest.  For one thing, the poor can lose their money.  Or they can trade their debit card for drugs, leaving themselves and their children still starving and homeless.  Even if they don't lose it or deliberately waste it, the reason they are poor is due to a string of bad economic decisions.  There is no reason to believe that a free monthly paycheck will suddenly make them thrifty penny pinchers.  They will likely celebrate each "payday" with revelry and spending spree and come up short when rent and light bills come due.

If government is to be the source so charity, then let government emulate the very effective model used back when charity was private.  By doing so, they would be able to function off of voluntary contributions the same as private charities did, do and will continue to do until government finally bans them altogether. 


My only concern here is the assumption that government CAN emulate the original model effectively. I saw how wasteful the military was and in comparison to a lot of other government run programs/departments, and I have come to the conclusion that it's just impossible for a government to cost-effectively run anything.
  

Help me buy shotguns for women.
https://www.help50.org/donate
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 3534
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #9 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 2:16pm
Print Post  
TYCapitalism wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:45pm:
My only concern here is the assumption that government CAN emulate the original model effectively. I saw how wasteful the military was and in comparison to a lot of other government run programs/departments, and I have come to the conclusion that it's just impossible for a government to cost-effectively run anything.


Exactly.  Government inefficiency starts with the fact that government can force us to pay for itself so they don't  need to be efficient.  If contributions to government are voluntary, government would then have the motivation to be efficient so that people don't simply give to United Way or some such instead of the government charity.

  

"Taxes are morally justified theft" - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy