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TYCapitalism
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #10 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 3:25pm
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That would be pretty great. I'd be competing with my local Sheriff's Office for donations.  Grin
  

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Jeff
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #11 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:18pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:38pm:
Disagree strongly for several reasons.

Before the government went into the charity business, private charities were very effective at helping the poor to survive and reasonably effective at helping the poor rise above the poverty.  Yet they rarely, if ever, gave direct cash subsidies to the poor. 

Instead they offered soup kitchens where the poor could be fed and shelters where they could sleep and clean themselves.  They also offered donated used clothes for poor who had been living outside.


They also generally required recipients of  charity to work and learn useful trades, become self supporting moral members of society and thus become able to help both themselves and others in need of charity.

What a great idea!
  
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Jeff
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #12 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:22pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 2:16pm:
Exactly.  Government inefficiency starts with the fact that government can force us to pay for itself so they don't  need to be efficient.  If contributions to government are voluntary, government would then have the motivation to be efficient so that people don't simply give to United Way or some such instead of the government charity.

I still think that without taxation government would disappear and anarchy would ensue.

You haven't yet convinced me otherwise.

Edit: "government charity"? WTF?
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #13 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:26pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 5:18pm:
They also generally required recipients of  charity to work and learn useful trades, become self supporting moral members of society and thus become able to help both themselves and others in need of charity.

What a great idea!

I think welfare/UBI recipients should be disallowed from voting.  There are just too many incentives for welfare recipients to vote for heavy taxation and wealth redistribution schemes.

When (if ever) they stop receiving welfare/UBI benefits, their voting rights can be restored.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #14 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 6:16pm
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Let's keep an eye on it.

I predict it won't last because it's based on faulty premises.

Despite my Mother's prohibition against gambling, I'll take bets that it will fail soon enough for my bets to pay off. Smiley


PM me if you want to bet serious money. Thanks.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #15 - Sep 11th, 2018 at 6:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 6:16pm:
Let's keep an eye on it.

I predict it won't last because it's based on faulty premises.

Despite my Mother's prohibition against gambling, I'll take bets that it will fail soon enough for my bets to pay off. Smiley


PM me if you want to bet serious money. Thanks.


Disclaimer- If this is illegal where you live, don't bother.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #16 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 9:12am
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:08pm:
So, generally speaking,  you think UBI is a good plan?


No, it just beats welfare.

Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:38pm:
They will have them anyway. What then?


I admit this is hopeful but it'd be great if it was just tough shit. People understand that they get more free stuff if they have babies, so they have more.

Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:38pm:
Before the government went into the charity business, private charities were very effective at helping the poor to survive and reasonably effective at helping the poor rise above the poverty.  Yet they rarely, if ever, gave direct cash subsidies to the poor. 


Follow through with this thought. What happens to the current entitled-to-cash population on voluntary charity only? This may happen if they're switched to UBI too, but I think they'll riot.

It's harder to build something up than break it down. The society we had before was nice, but it takes hundreds of generations to forge that out of the kind of irresponsible people we have now. Two generations of rewarding irresponsibility destroys it cleanly.

Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:38pm:
Even if they don't lose it or deliberately waste it, the reason they are poor is due to a string of bad economic decisions.  There is no reason to believe that a free monthly paycheck will suddenly make them into thrifty penny pinchers.


I think you're right that some people are genetically irresponsible and can't be taught better. For many others I strongly believe it's just a matter of not giving them too much. No one actually starves due to spending sprees. That needs to change, or at least, they need to come damn close if they're wasteful.

The world has taught these people that there's a lifestyle floor they'll rest at no matter what. The problem is that it then becomes logical to go on spending sprees. You won't starve when you have nothing, so live high while you can, otherwise you'll be forced to spend your own money on necessities, and you'll never get anything nice.

The modern solution to this is to give them enough to live high all the time, so they don't run out. Welfare queens have enormous flat screen TVs, the latest iPhone, and the reality is that people who work for a living don't have those things. If they want them, they have to sacrifice something else. Swap welfare for UBI and this would be reversed.

Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:38pm:
If government is to be the source so charity, then let government emulate the very effective model used back when charity was private.


Avoiding giving cash to the poor is probably a good idea. Food, water, shelter.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #17 - Sep 12th, 2018 at 5:01pm
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Vermont should do it. They seem to like the idea of a UBI, they should implement it, see how it works out...

The population of Vermont is 624,000, plus or minus.

Median household income is $46,000 plus or minus.

Suppose it was possible to live in Vermont, well provided with all the basics, for $10,000/year...

That's what the UBI should be then, right?

The cost/year, at $10,000 per individual, would be 6 billion 240 million dollars.

Vermont's total yearly state revenue is 6 billion dollars...

Oops! Embarrassed

That's probably why they don't do it.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #18 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:10pm
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SnarkySack wrote on Sep 11th, 2018 at 1:38pm:
Quote:
They will have them anyway. What then?


The Opposition wrote on Sep 12th, 2018 at 9:12am:
[quote]I admit this is hopeful but it'd be great if it was just tough shit. People understand that they get more free stuff if they have babies, so they have more.


Exactly.  The ideas of Malthus (that population growth would absorb any benefits of improvements in production and inevitably lead to a disaster) were supposedly rendered invalid by the invention of the birth control pill.  Sadly, the Malthusian Catastrophe is now happening in slow motion in the permanent welfare class.

Welfare dolees, be they hillbillies, Ghetto rats or Barrio bangers, are as indifferent to the idea of birth control as any devout Catholic or Mormon.  They see out of wedlock birth as a rite of passage not an economic setback.  Why shouldn't they?  They have more disposable income after having a baby with no daddy, not less.


Quote:
Follow through with this thought. What happens to the current entitled-to-cash population on voluntary charity only? This may happen if they're switched to UBI too, but I think they'll riot.


You're envisioning a sudden switch?  I say start by tying welfare with sterilization.  Grandfather all existing welfare babies, but tie benefits to the parent to job training for the children.  Preferably in a boarding school.  By doing that, we can gradually break the nation's addiction to handouts.

I hate to think of avoiding riots as a reason to give up my rights as a human being.  Better to die on my feet than live on my knees, however much Taxmaster J. would disagree.

I Quote:
t's harder to build something up than break it down. The society we had before was nice, but it takes hundreds of generations to forge that out of the kind of irresponsible people we have now. Two generations of rewarding irresponsibility destroys it cleanly.


Wow!  Sad, but true.

Quote:
I think you're right that some people are genetically irresponsible and can't be taught better. For many others I strongly believe it's just a matter of not giving them too much. No one actually starves due to spending sprees. That needs to change, or at least, they need to come damn close if they're wasteful.

The world has taught these people that there's a lifestyle floor they'll rest at no matter what. The problem is that it then becomes logical to go on spending sprees. You won't starve when you have nothing, so live high while you can, otherwise you'll be forced to spend your own money on necessities, and you'll never get anything nice.

The modern solution to this is to give them enough to live high all the time, so they don't run out. Welfare queens have enormous flat screen TVs, the latest iPhone, and the reality is that people who work for a living don't have those things. If they want them, they have to sacrifice something else. Swap welfare for UBI and this would be reversed.


You make good points.  How would you answer a UBI recipient who loses all his money the day after paypay?

In the army, we had a guy we called "Downtown Brown."  Every payday, he would buy enough cigarettes to last a month and stock up on toothpaste, soap and razors for a month.  The next weekend day, he'd go downtown.  He would make it into his rack sometime around two AM on Monday and claim that because he could not remember what happened to his money, he must have had fun with it. 

It was fine for him because he had the barracks and the mess hall to live on until next payday. 

Quote:
Avoiding giving cash to the poor is probably a good idea. Food, water, shelter.
Well, now that last line sounds like you agree with me.  Or am I reading it wrong?


  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #19 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:21pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:10pm:
Exactly.  The ideas of Malthus (that population growth would absorb any benefits of improvements in production and inevitably lead to a disaster) were supposedly rendered invalid by the invention of the birth control pill.  Sadly, the Malthusian Catastrophe is now happening in slow motion in the permanent welfare class.
Other than all the racist overtones, WTF are you talking about? You propose that America is running out of food to feed people on welfare?

You're a Trumpian Nationalist arent't you? And just as ignorant as Trump.
  
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