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Jeff
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #130 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 5:07pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 4:06pm:
What if ninety percent of your neighborhood are hard working so would not accept a UBI plan...
I told you, they are mostly smart enough to be able to follow the simple math that proves any sort of UBI to be an absurd pipe dream in this community unless you can aim the Official Federal Unicorn's ass our way, so the wealth it farts out falls on us. Cheesy
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #131 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 9:22am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 5:07pm:
I told you, they are mostly smart enough to be able to follow the simple math that proves any sort of UBI to be an absurd pipe dream in this community unless you can aim the Official Federal Unicorn's ass our way, so the wealth it farts out falls on us. Cheesy


So instead of answering the question, you claim that people would never elect representatives who would enact an unworkable program?

  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #132 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 12:33pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 9:22am:
So instead of answering the question, you claim that people would never elect representatives who would enact an unworkable program?

Sure, they do it all the time, but the people we elect to make laws in our community live here and will listen to reason, and people do go to the town meetings and speak their minds.

No law that will immediately bankrupt the town is going to be passed. I'm not worried. The town government can't print money and they don't have an unlimited line of credit.
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #133 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 1:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 12:33pm:
Sure, they do it all the time, but the people we elect to make laws in our community live here and will listen to reason, and people do go to the town meetings and speak their minds.

No law that will immediately bankrupt the town is going to be passed. I'm not worried. The town government can't print money and they don't have an unlimited line of credit.


Right, but what if a bunch of people move into new apartments in your community?  You won't let them vote in a UBI?


  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #134 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 2:08pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 1:04pm:
Right, but what if a bunch of people move into new apartments in your community?  You won't let them vote in a UBI?


It would be the town council that voted in a UBI. The new people would get to vote for who they wanted on the town council.
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #135 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 2:48pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 2:08pm:
It would be the town council that voted in a UBI. The new people would get to vote for who they wanted on the town council.


Right so the new apartment dwellers elect a town counsel that then votes in a twelve percent annual tax on homes valued at 100K or more to provide a $500 monthly UBI to all households.  You would disagree with that of course, but would you call it moral since it is a legally levied tax at the local level?


  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #136 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:42pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 2:48pm:
Right so the new apartment dwellers elect a town counsel that then votes in a twelve percent annual tax on homes valued at 100K or more to provide a $500 monthly UBI to all households.  You would disagree with that of course, but would you call it moral since it is a legally levied tax at the local level?


It won't happen here.

Fantastical scenarios that will never happen are not good predictive tools.

Have you ever lived on Earth?

In NYC perhaps, where your local government is tyrannical and out of control and more corrupt than ever, where productive people have been fleeing for a long time?

You think all of Earth is like that?
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #137 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:42pm:
It won't happen here.

Fantastical scenarios that will never happen are not good predictive tools.

Have you ever lived on Earth?


So why not just say, "I am absolutely not ever going to answer a question because I always look foolish or dishonest when I do?"

Unless your town has some kind of zoning restrictions against low-cost housing, my scenario could indeed happen there.

Quote:
In NYC perhaps, where your local government is tyrannical and out of control and more corrupt than ever, where productive people have been fleeing for a long time?



Fine.

All the productive people will never flee New York because of the tax.  Not in the foreseeable future with the ports, Wall street, Broadway, Movie and TV studios, etc.  Office space in New York costs an average of $14,800 annually and there are waiting lists.  There's plenty of productive people in New York and there will be for a long, long time.

Average median income for New York households is about 100K.  If the people of New York voted in representatives that would tax income above that media 12K per year to provide every household five hundred  dollars per month, would that be moral?

I think even you understand what a bad policy that would be.  But if it were legally levied and legally collected, would it be moral or are you going to change your definition again?
  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #138 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 1:06pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:32pm:
Unless your town has some kind of zoning restrictions against low-cost housing, my scenario could indeed happen there.
There is plenty of low cost housing around here now. In the near future, a lot more is not going to be constructed because there aren't many jobs to be had, so there aren't many people looking for housing.
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #139 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 1:25pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 11th, 2018 at 12:32pm:
If the people of New York voted in representatives that would tax income above that median 12K per year to provide every household five hundred  dollars per month, would that be moral?

I think even you understand what a bad policy that would be.  But if it were legally levied and legally collected, would it be moral or are you going to change your definition again?
Is the government of NYC legitimate, in that the people have representatives they have elected in free fair elections who they can remove from office in free fair elections?
Is there anything in the current law governing the government of NYC that would make such a tax illegal?

If the answers are yes and no, then the government of NYC can legally enact such a tax and distribute the money as they choose, unless there are legal restrictions on how NYC tax revenue can be spent...

When did a UBI come to be applied to households? I thought it applied to individuals?

Why has it become reasonable to imagine that $500/year is a basic "income"?

"Really bad government policies" are judged by their outcomes, are they not? No matter how noble and moral they sound.

If the outcome is to make people in general more poor and keep many of them dependent on government, wouldn't everyone say the policy was immoral?

No.

Some would say, having everyone equally poor and having everyone equally dependent on the government is a good, especially if it prevents them from becoming greedy capitalists.

As I've said, the idea of a UBI is fiscally unsound and morally repugnant because it treats adults as children, denying them the dignity that each individual has a right to under classical liberal theories, and further because it erodes a necessary part of maintaining a free society, that being that people work for their own benefit and have their property rights protected.

But of course, if the various boroughs of NYC want to exact local property taxes to create local schools for all the children of the community, I think that's a good idea. Smiley
  
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