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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment (Read 1221 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #20 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 8:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:21pm:
Other than all the racist overtones, WTF are you talking about? You propose that America is running out of food to feed people on welfare?

You're a Trumpian Nationalist arent't you? And just as ignorant as Trump.


Hey, Jeff!

This seems like a perfect time for you to tell us whether you agree or disagree with government using deadly force to stop the "theft" of not paying taxes. 

Well?


  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #21 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 6:48am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 8:18pm:
Hey, Jeff!

This seems like a perfect time for you to tell us whether you agree or disagree with government using deadly force to stop the "theft" of not paying taxes. 

Well?


People have been put in jail for tax evasion, is that what you're talking about?

Taxes are legal as long as they are levied according to the legal limits on the taxing power.

Do you have a moral obligation to pay taxes that are not legally levied? No. Will you have your wages garnished and your assets seized if you don't, and possibly get put in jail? Yes.

Give an example of someone the government has executed for evading taxes. Thanks.
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #22 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 6:50am
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Hey red, this seems like a good time to ask you WTF you were talking about, and what you think about Vermont instituting a real UBI...
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #23 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 9:13pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 15th, 2018 at 6:48am:
People have been put in jail for tax evasion, is that what you're talking about?


I'm talking about the fact that the jailers have guns in case they have to use deadly force when putting the tax refusers in jail.  Are you fine with that, or do you believe that human life is more important than property?

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Taxes are legal as long as they are levied according to the legal limits on the taxing power.


All taxes currently levied in the U.S. are legal by that standard, since they have not been ruled by the USSC to be illegal.

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Do you have a moral obligation to pay taxes that are not legally levied? No. Will you have your wages garnished and your assets seized if you don't, and possibly get put in jail? Yes.

Give an example of someone the government has executed for evading taxes. Thanks.


We are not at that point yet. 

But each and every time the taxman comes to evict a homeowner and auction her house, he brings a gunman with him.  Do you think that they just wrestle the people out of the house?

If the taxman did have to face reluctant payers with bare hands instead of guns, don't you agree that a rule like that would limit taxes much more successfully than the constitution has been able to?


  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #24 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 8:20am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 15th, 2018 at 9:13pm:
I'm talking about the fact that the jailers have guns in case they have to use deadly force when putting the tax refusers in jail.
As is always the case, they can only use deadly force if the person being arrested uses potentially deadly force against them while resisting arrest.
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #25 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 8:21am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 15th, 2018 at 9:13pm:
All taxes currently levied in the U.S. are legal by that standard, since they have not been ruled by the USSC to be illegal.
You believe the S.Ct. is and always has been correct in it's decisions?

Instead of just backing off of your off topic hyperbole regarding tax evaders being shot and executed, why not tell me what you think about Vermont implementing a UBI? It could be the very first realistic test anywhere! (No fair using any federal money though.)
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #26 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 8:58am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 8:20am:
As is always the case, they can only use deadly force if the person being arrested uses potentially deadly force against them while resisting arrest.


I accurately predicted in another thread that this would be your fallback position.

The taxman has no moral authority to remove a homeowner from his home.  Bringing a gunman to shoot the homeowner if the homeowner resists is using deadly force to steal, which is the definition of armed robbery. 

The only reason shooting the homeowner isn't murder is because our bizarre laws say that extorting money with threat of force and then ultimately using deadly force on a reluctant payer is perfectly legal when done by agents of government. 

You support that.  So your ethical stance that human life is more important than property is either extremely flexible or you carve out an exception for agents of government who are not even defending their own property but taking the property of another.

So by your logic, I am wrong to shoot a thief to prevent my car from being stolen, but a deputy constable is right to shoot a homeowner who tries to prevent his own house from being stolen.
  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #27 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 9:07am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 8:21am:
You believe the S.Ct. is and always has been correct in it's decisions?


No, but as a constitutionalist, you do.  The constitution grants the USSC the right to decide all cases.  It has ruled that to be true several times.

So, yes.  They are always right and always will be right under your system of the constitution.  Plessy v. Ferguson was right and so was Brown v. Board of Education.  There is no contradiction because the constitution is a living document.

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Instead of just backing off of your off topic hyperbole regarding tax evaders being shot and executed, why not tell me what you think about Vermont implementing a UBI? It could be the very first realistic test anywhere! (No fair using any federal money though.)


As long as you tacitly admit that you support the use of deadly force to collect taxes but no to protect personal property, I can move on.

Vermont's UBI idea is idiotic of course.  No one can explain what to do when a parent on UBI spends every penny on "payday" to buy losing lottery tickets. 

How are the children fed then?

Government can never and will never operate as a charity and be successful.  Let charities be charities and let the government be government. 

If the poor riot, let citizen militias eliminate them.
  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #28 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 9:23am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 8:58am:
I accurately predicted in another thread that this would be your fallback position.

The taxman has no moral authority to remove a homeowner from his home.
It's just the truth. IRS agents are not authorized to use deadly force unless they are in imminent danger, the same standard that applies to everyone.

Since you think taxation is theft and therefore immoral, it's easy to predict that as your only argument.
  
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #29 - Sep 16th, 2018 at 9:40am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 16th, 2018 at 9:07am:
No, but as a constitutionalist, you do.  The constitution grants the USSC the right to decide all cases.  It has ruled that to be true several times.
As I have said repeatedly, the Constitution gives the USSC jurisdiction over all cases arising under the Constitution. That does not include any authority to alter the Constitution, which is essentially what the court did in deciding that the commerce clause and the general welfare clause were grants of general power.

The USSC has also been repeatedly wrong in its decisions trying to clarify the meaning of the 14th Amendment, the 4th Amendment and even the 2nd Amendment... And others.

They are also wrong in general to grant deference to the government in interpreting the Constitution, which, rightly seen, is a document intended to grant deference to individual rights against government power.

They are also wrong in granting bureaucratic regulations the force of law. That also alters the Constitution, which places all law making power with Congress.

They are also wrong to approve of Congress delegating any of it's powers to the President.

I could go on... but try to keep these ideas of mine in mind before you (once again) misconstrue me as a statist or misconstrue my positions on the Constitution and the Supreme Court. Thanks.

Edit: I would have said the S.Ct has also been wrong about the 16th Amendment as it allegedly pertains to the taxation of wages and salaries without apportionment, but to my knowledge, no case raising that question has ever been allowed to proceed to the S.Ct.

Brushaber v. Union Pacific RR Co. hinted around about it, but it was not the question raised in the case, and as you should know, courts don't make decisions on questions not before the court. That's not within their grant of power.)
  
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