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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment (Read 2904 times)
Jeff
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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #40 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 8:07am
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 7:52am:
How does government gain the moral authority to do that? 



There are very good reasons for granting police powers to governments, just as there are very good reasons for granting limited powers of taxation to governments.

Being of an anarchical bent, you believe that government is immoral. You are in the minority, even among libertarians. Your arguments amount to calling the people who created and ratified the U.S. Constitution immoral statists.

Fine.
  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #41 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 8:11am
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 7:54am:
You agreed that it is immoral.  You said that it is, "slightly less immoral" than not funding public schools.  But, I guess slightly more immoral" than feeding the kids in those school?

Your moral system is convoluted to say the least, Jeff.


I'm a libertarian of the consequencionalist variety. I think of myself as a classical liberal.

And I've lived long enough in the real world to know that moral absolutism creates radicals willing to kill for whatever absolute morality motivates them.
  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #42 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 8:38am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 8:07am:
There are very good reasons for granting police powers to governments, just as there are very good reasons for granting limited powers of taxation to governments.


There are good reasons for exceeding the speed of light, also.  But it can't be done.  Granting the moral authority to steal to the government cannot be done unless the individuals granting that moral authority themselves have the moral authority to steal. 

You have yet to explain how that is possible.

  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #43 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 9:00am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 8:11am:
I'm a libertarian of the consequencionalist variety. I think of myself as a classical liberal.

And I've lived long enough in the real world to know that moral absolutism creates radicals willing to kill for whatever absolute morality motivates them.


Since morality is out the window for you, let's look at the practical implications of your tax-em-till-they-squeal* philosophy. 

Putting the moral objections to stealing aside, allowing government to take money from the citizens at will has always led to massive growth in government and huge losses of freedom to individuals.  Allowing a central government "limited" authority over local governments has always led to the the local governments becoming completely subservient to the central government.  How often has that happened? 

Every.  Single.  Time.

But "so what," the pragmatist asks.  "If the central government is the best provider of legitimate government services why not let it grow?"

It isn't.  Central government serves the people's interests more poorly than local governments do.  How often? 

Every.  Single.  Time.

"But taxes are are vital," the consequentialist insists.  "Government uses tax dollars to meet the needs of citizens.  The government is just plain more efficient than individuals at meeting economic goals."

In practice, the government uses those taxes to become bloated and overbearing.  In a representative republic, they use the power to tax as leverage to keep their voters loyal and the power to dole out money for the same purpose.   "The people" are not the beneficiaries of government.  Only those with sufficient pull to influence lawmakers and bureaucrats benefit from government.  How often is that the case?

Every.  Single.  Time.

Tell us again, Jeff, how you support taxation for practical reasons?

*Ask me why "tax-em-till-they-squeal" is an accurate representation of your plan.

  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #44 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 10:34am
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 8:38am:
There are good reasons for exceeding the speed of light, also.  But it can't be done.  Granting the moral authority to steal to the government cannot be done unless the individuals granting that moral authority themselves have the moral authority to steal. 

You have yet to explain how that is possible.

I've told you several times, creating and maintaining a civilized society where a rule of law is enforced to protect innocent people from barbarian predators is a moral goal, and it is the morality of the goal that makes the necessary evil of taxation to support police and courts and jails also moral.

It's an argument from the morality of preventing anarchy and trying to see that justice is done.

If your alternative was in any way feasible, the morality of taxation to protect individual liberty would disappear, but your proposed alternative is a pipe dream, a fantasy of something occurring that has never occurred and won't unless humans become something they are not.
  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #45 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 1:04pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 10:34am:
I've told you several times, creating and maintaining a civilized society where a rule of law is enforced to protect innocent people from barbarian predators is a moral goal, and it is the morality of the goal that makes the necessary evil of taxation to support police and courts and jails also moral.

It's an argument from the morality of preventing anarchy and trying to see that justice is done.


So, we must tolerate the injustice of having half or earnings and wealth taken by the taxman to avoid the injustice of having however much of wealth thieves would be able to take absent the tax-funded police and courts?

Quote:
If your alternative was in any way feasible, the morality of taxation to protect individual liberty would disappear, but your proposed alternative is a pipe dream, a fantasy of something occurring that has never occurred and won't unless humans become something they are not.


I don’t believe you’ve spend a second thinking about my proposed alternative.  If you had, you wouldn’t make that statement.

I believe you are in love with the idea of taxes for defense, police, public school and any other projects and programs you deem worthy.  You like the idea of taxes for the same reason GEMorton does, namely that it eliminates the possibility of freeloading.

A pretty preposterous reason, given that about half of the people in the U.S. freeload off the other half.


  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #46 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 2:28pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 1:04pm:
So, we must tolerate the injustice of having half or earnings and wealth taken by the taxman...
No. We should work very hard to restore the limits on government and restore the limits on the taxing power.

And Vermont should implement a UBI and fund it by voluntary means. You should work very hard to try to make that happen!
  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #47 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 2:38pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 2:28pm:
No. We should work very hard to restore the limits on government and restore the limits on the taxing power.



The line that government crosses is not at some "limit" set by the constitution, common sense, pragmatism or anything else.  The line is crossed when government steals from us and we allow it.  Nothing that happens after that should surprise any thinking person.

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And Vermont should implement a UBI and fund it by voluntary means. You should work very hard to try to make that happen!


No one would contribute to something that foolish.  Yet another benefit of having a government that isn't licensed to steal.  it's impossible to fund such idiocy. 



  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #48 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 2:46pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 2:38pm:
No one would contribute to something that foolish.
Judging from all the evidence you've presented, no one will contribute to support government at all.
  

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Re: Swiss Prepare To Launch Another UBI Experiment
Reply #49 - Sep 17th, 2018 at 2:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 17th, 2018 at 2:46pm:
Judging from all the evidence you've presented, no one will contribute to support government at all.


Right, because no one has ever paid a toll and no one has ever voluntarily contributed to any charity and no one has ever paid a lawyer to file a lawsuit. 

What we do know is that no government, having attained the power to tax/steal has ever been limited.

Not.  Ever.

  

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