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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights. (Read 633 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #20 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 9:40am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 9:26am:
Which is another argument against including a bill of rights in the Constitution.

Since no power is granted to search or seize without probable cause and warrants, there was no need to create a prohibition against it.

Federalist No. 84: Hamilton
           "I go further and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and to the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed Constitution but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and, on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why, for instance, should it be said that liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed?"



You may be right.  The Bill of Rights was likely even more of a Trojan Horse than even the Constitution itself.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #21 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 10:03am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 9:40am:
You may be right.  The Bill of Rights was likely even more of a Trojan Horse than even the Constitution itself.


I don't think so. A Bill of Rights had been fairly successful against the Kings of England, which led many people to believe it was a good and necessary thing.

My guess is they simply did not understand the idea of limited enumerated powers being granted to a government, because such a thing had never been done.
  
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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #22 - Sep 26th, 2018 at 5:34pm
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Huh.

I was hoping for an interesting reply here...
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #23 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 7:47am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 10:03am:
I don't think so. A Bill of Rights had been fairly successful against the Kings of England, which led many people to believe it was a good and necessary thing.

My guess is they simply did not understand the idea of limited enumerated powers being granted to a government, because such a thing had never been done.


I actually didn't know how to respond to that.  It is so out of synch with your previous praise of the founders who supposedly wrote the constitution for the purpose of giving the government limited powers.  Now you say they did not even understand the concept since it had never been done.

Also, "it has never been done" is your main argument against my idea of a non-thieving government so it's strange again that you praise the framers for doing something that had never been done.




  

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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #24 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 8:19am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 7:47am:
I actually didn't know how to respond to that.  It is so out of synch with your previous praise of the founders who supposedly wrote the constitution for the purpose of giving the government limited powers.  Now you say they did not even understand the concept since it had never been done.
There were a lot of people involved in creating and ratifying the Constitution. Some understood what sort of government was being created differently than others, some probably didn't understand it at all. That's why there were debates in the ratifying conventions in the states and why there were not only Federalist Papers, but Anti-Federalist Papers.

As it turned out, not enough states were willing to ratify without the promise of the inclusion of a bill of rights.

I never thought or claimed that the Constitution was a perfect plan or that it created a perfect government, just the best form of government ever established. Article V has an important role in making it so good.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #25 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 8:25am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 7:47am:
Also, "it has never been done" is your main argument against my idea of a non-thieving government so it's strange again that you praise the framers for doing something that had never been done.
The Constitution was the evolution of a process that began with Magna Carta and the Enlightenment, the process of turning government from a master into a servant that protected individual rights.

There were ample opportunities on the American frontier, as you pointed out,  to expand and continue the idea of donating money to pay a sheriff into a voluntarily funded government, but it didn't happen.

I think it would be most correct to say that voluntarily funded government was tried repeatedly and abandoned because it didn't work.
  
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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #26 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 8:55am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 8:25am:
The Constitution was the evolution of a process that began with Magna Carta and the Enlightenment, the process of turning government from a master into a servant that protected individual rights.

There were ample opportunities on the American frontier, as you pointed out,  to expand and continue the idea of donating money to pay a sheriff into a voluntarily funded government, but it didn't happen.

I think it would be most correct to say that voluntarily funded government was tried repeatedly and abandoned because it didn't work.


The mistake was not in the voluntary funding of government, the mistake was in giving the nascent government of the towns an implied exclusivity of arms bearing. 

As soon as shopkeepers hung their guns in the back room so as to be able to stock shelves and count daily receipts with both hands, they put themselves in a position to have their tax rates jacked up with no recourse since their guns had gone dusty, rusty, misplaced or simply no longer familiar.

We should voluntarily fund government and remain armed so that it stays voluntary.

I agree that it has never been done and sustained.  But if you can cite the Magna Carta as a precursor to the constitution, I will cite frontier town voluntary government as a precursor to modern day voluntary government if we could ever grow the balls to try it.

BTW, did you ever answer the question about the second amendment and nuclear weapons?  Sorry if you did and I missed it.

  

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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #27 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 10:21am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 8:55am:
The mistake was not in the voluntary funding of government, the mistake was in giving the nascent government of the towns an implied exclusivity of arms bearing. 
That didn't happen Red. The granting of police powers to government is an essential step in creating and maintaining a civilized society.

Where everyone claims police powers, no one actually has them and the society is anarchic.

The right to be armed in defense of yourself and your property remained, and still remains.
  
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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #28 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 10:26am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 8:55am:
But if you can cite the Magna Carta as a precursor to the constitution, I will cite frontier town voluntary government as a precursor to modern day voluntary government if we could ever grow the balls to try it.
According to you, it was tried in many frontier towns, and then abandoned. I posit that it was abandoned for the very good reason that it didn't work.

There are a lot of very small towns around America that have almost no government. I live near one. Pick one near you and start trying to sell your idea of voluntary funding.
  
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Re: Constitution Day, Part II - the Bill of (non-absolute) rights.
Reply #29 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 11:52am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 10:26am:
According to you, it was tried in many frontier towns, and then abandoned. I posit that it was abandoned for the very good reason that it didn't work.

There are a lot of very small towns around America that have almost no government. I live near one. Pick one near you and start trying to sell your idea of voluntary funding.


Yeah.    I’’d like to know the name of that town with “almost no government.” Tell me and I bet I can find at least three police agencies that actively collect revenue in that town by writing tickets.



  

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