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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #20 - Oct 6th, 2018 at 7:46am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 12:04am:
Absolutely, unless you aggress.

Hiring a professional assassin to kill your business competitor is analogous to what Soros does.

I know you say the person who hired the hit man "did not aggress", but the law says she's guilty of a very serious crime.

Your definition of aggression is far too narrow.

Don't hit, and don't pay to have someone hit.

Don't steal and don't pay someone to steal for you.

That's a good start on making your understanding of aggression more complete...

But why focus so much on the NAP? Thou shall not murder and thou shall not steal predate the NAP, and centuries of common law cases have decided that crimes against people and property can be committed in many different ways.





  
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #21 - Oct 6th, 2018 at 1:05pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 7:46am:
Your definition of aggression is far too narrow.


I disagree. If you want to widen the scope of what's unacceptable and should be met with force, you have many other ideologies to choose from that already do that.

Libertarianism maintains that the only things that are so unacceptable that they may be met with force are hitting and stealing.

The matter of the hit man is a moot point. Hiring someone to kill someone else is an unenforceable contract. The hit man has every right to walk away with the money. If he doesn't, and chooses to kill instead, that's entirely on him. No contract is forcing him to kill.

It's no different than if I said to you, "I really wish that guy would just drop dead," and you go out and kill him. The only thing that would separate hiring a hit man from this is the enforceability of the contract, and there is none.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #22 - Oct 6th, 2018 at 1:48pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
Libertarianism maintains that the only things that are so unacceptable that they may be met with force are hitting and stealing.

How about kidnapping and rape?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #23 - Oct 6th, 2018 at 1:50pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 1:05pm:
The matter of the hit man is a moot point. Hiring someone to kill someone else is an unenforceable contract. The hit man has every right to walk away with the money. If he doesn't, and chooses to kill instead, that's entirely on him. No contract is forcing him to kill.

Tell that to the jury when you are being tried for hiring out a murder.

BTW, you can sue the hit man for breach of contract if you want to. Cheesy Let me know when you are going in to file the complaint, I'd like to be there!
  
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #24 - Oct 6th, 2018 at 2:59pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 1:48pm:
How about kidnapping and rape?


Both involving putting your hands or weapons on another person and applying force? That's hitting.

Jeff wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 1:50pm:
Tell that to the jury when you are being tried for hiring out a murder.


Shall I use this on you from now on? Jeff has something he thinks he should be able to do, like own a gun.

The government will take away the guns.

Opposition: Tell your "gun rights" story to a jury, LOL!

Jeff wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 1:50pm:
BTW, you can sue the hit man for breach of contract if you want to.


In libertarian theory it's an unenforceable contract. Go read..

If you want to talk about what the law currently is as an ideal, go somewhere else.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #25 - Oct 6th, 2018 at 5:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 2:59pm:
Both involving putting your hands or weapons on another person and applying force? That's hitting.


But it's OK if I pay people to kidnap someone for me? If the people I hire to kidnap your daughter don't deliver her to me, I won't pay them. That's the contract we have, payment on delivery.

You're all good with that sort of thing? You say it's the libertarian thing to do?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #26 - Oct 6th, 2018 at 5:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 2:59pm:
In libertarian theory it's an unenforceable contract. Go read..

In the law, it's an illegal contract, and both parties to the contract have committed a crime.

Probably you should look for theories of liberty that conform to those sorts of laws, rather than babbling about how the NAP won't let you own a chicken.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #27 - Oct 6th, 2018 at 5:26pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 2:59pm:
If you want to talk about what the law currently is as an ideal...


I can't make sense of this either lizard.

You seem to be becoming less and less rational...

Take a vacation. Spend time with friends. Try to relax.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #28 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 12:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 5:21pm:
But it's OK if I pay people to kidnap someone for me?


I never said it was okay. I said it wasn't aggression. IMEO it should be a tort, not a crime. Crime implies aggression.

Why do you want to double-dip and punish two people for a single act that a single person committed?

Jeff wrote on Oct 6th, 2018 at 5:26pm:
I can't make sense of this either lizard.


Then you're failing to follow the conversation. When I go by libertarian principles, you go back to the actual law every time and make fun on the basis of those principles being considered absurd in the actual legal system.

You fail to understand how arbitrary your measuring stick is. America is one country; there are almost 200.

I could as easily suggest that beating my wife is perfectly permissible and laugh at you when you say it isn't, saying, "Tell that to a Sharia Court and see what happens.  Cheesy  Cheesy  Cheesy"

The laws a particular country happens to have are ridiculous to use as a measuring stick for what is right. I just demonstrated that.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #29 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 2:40pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 12:58pm:
I never said it was okay. I said it wasn't aggression. IMEO it should be a tort, not a crime. Crime implies aggression.
A crime is whatever the law says it is, and the law says forcing people to do things against their will, like kidnapping them, is a crime. So is extortion.

No hands are laid on anyone when your house is robbed, but it's a crime.

You are hopelessly fixated on a narrow definition of aggression, which in any case is not synonymous with the term "crime".
  
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