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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #30 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 2:50pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 12:58pm:
When I go by libertarian principles, you go back to the actual law every time and make fun on the basis of those principles being considered absurd in the actual legal system.

The common law of England, which was continued in force in the U.S. is based on fundamental principles of classical liberalism. So is libertarian theory.

You are trying to divorce the two things, to pretend that U.S. law diverges from libertarian principles.

I agree that in some instances it does, but virtually every instance of such divergence arose in the Progressive Era and was formulated by progressives.

Yes, local community ordinances often diverge from what you call libertarian principles, but again, you take a narrow view.

Classical liberalism, and most modern libertarian thinking is directed towards the real world where real people live together in communities.

You expect that perfect liberty is a feasible and proper way to live together with others, but it is not. It is not even desirable.

Yes, "no bomb factories in the city limits" restricts your perfect liberty. Too bad.
  
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #31 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 2:50pm:
Classical liberalism, and most modern libertarian thinking is directed towards the real world where real people live together in communities.

You expect that perfect liberty is a feasible and proper way to live together with others, but it is not. It is not even desirable.

Yes, "no bomb factories in the city limits" restricts your perfect liberty. Too bad.


I could reply to this that forcing YouTube and Facebook to be politically neutral violates their perfect liberty, but too bad - it's about having viable communities where people can live together, and that means practical free speech you can actually use, not being deplatformed everywhere you go if you say the wrong thing.

But I %$#&ing understand that others get their perfect liberty even if I don't like it. Even if it makes life worse for me.

You also understand that everyone gets their perfect liberty, especially if I don't like it. In fact, you revel in it.

But when you don't like someone else's perfect liberty, you cross that line (the one you drew!) and move to pragmatism.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #32 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:46pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm:
I could reply to this that forcing YouTube and Facebook to be politically neutral violates their perfect liberty, but too bad - it's about having viable communities where people can live together, and that means practical free speech you can actually use, not being deplatformed everywhere you go if you say the wrong thing.

That was a fairly good rant lizard!

Who is it that want's to force private businesses to curb speech regarding their political opinions?

If you come to my house and start preaching anarchy and armed revolution to destroy the U.S. and capitalism and the Western tradition of the common law, I will throw you out of my house, and not politely.

That's the way the rule works.
  
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #33 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:48pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm:
But I %$#&ing understand that others get their perfect liberty even if I don't like it. Even if it makes life worse for me.

You also understand that everyone gets their perfect liberty, especially if I don't like it. In fact, you revel in it.

I'm happy you were not allowed to build a bomb factory next to the tax funded elementary school. Smiley
  
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #34 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:51pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:13pm:
But when you don't like someone else's perfect liberty, you cross that line (the one you drew!) and move to pragmatism.
Quit trying to draw lines everywhere. Human society is way more complicated than geometry.

In pure philosophical discussions of the ideal, clearly delineated lines can be drawn, but they don't hold for the real world of humans.

Pharisees demand that they must!
  
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #35 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:46pm:
That was a fairly good rant lizard!

Who is it that want's to force private businesses to curb speech regarding their political opinions?

If you come to my house and start preaching anarchy and armed revolution to destroy the U.S. and capitalism and the Western tradition of the common law, I will throw you out of my house, and not politely.

That's the way the rule works.


And it should work that way for everyone, not just you and YouTube.

But whoops! That's not libertarian! We have to demand the ideal, perfect liberty for big businesses but move to practicality and "what works best for living together" (read: Opposition must make a sacrifice for the greater good) when we're talking about the little guy's rights.

Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:48pm:
I'm happy you were not allowed to have a chicken in a residential neighbourhood.. Smiley


And I'll be happy when the government comes and takes your gun. Smiley

(Fixed to what we were actually talking about.)
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #36 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:17pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:58pm:
And it should work that way for everyone, not just you and YouTube.
What should work what way?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #37 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:19pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:58pm:
And I'll be happy when the government comes and takes your gun. Smiley


You think some classes of people should have guns, and others shouldn't.

Tsk tsk.

I bet you think Pharisees (the Rule Enforcers) and their helpers should have guns, but nobody else should.

Right?

Please note how different that is than me saying people convicted of violent crimes should not have guns.
  
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #38 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 7:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:17pm:
What should work what way?


YouTube gets to ban conservatives, because of absolute rights. Their rights cannot be curtailed for the greater good, like mine can.

I was being facetious when I said everyone should get their perfect liberty. Only big businesses like YouTube and Facebook should have that. Everyone else should have to submit to losing some perfect liberty and doing what works best to live together.

Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:19pm:
You think some classes of people should have guns, and others shouldn't.

Tsk tsk.

I bet you think Pharisees (the Rule Enforcers) and their helpers should have guns, but nobody else should.

Right?

Please note how different that is than me saying people convicted of violent crimes should not have guns.


No, I think you should be allowed to have guns.

I will just be personally happy when the government comes and takes yours, just like you're personally happy that I can't have a chicken on my own property.

There's no one on this planet (or in the universe, I expect) who cares about another person's rights if it doesn't affect them. I think I'll join your ranks. And I don't have a gun anymore, so I officially don't care.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Assume This is True: Find the Aggression - Part 2!
Reply #39 - Oct 7th, 2018 at 7:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 4:58pm:
And it should work that way for everyone, not just you and YouTube.


And unless the government gets involved, which it is not authorized to do, that is the way it works for everybody.
  
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