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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . . (Read 296 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #20 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 8:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 2:44pm:
In other words, the policeman has no way of knowing he's been sent to arrest an innocent man, but you feel justified in killing him?


To avoid being raped and/or murdered in prison?  Of course.

What is his excuse for doing that?

Is it "I was only following orders?"

If so, just say it.  It's not a new idea at all as I will quickly show you.

  

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The Opposition
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #21 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 10:23pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 2nd, 2018 at 9:40am:
Am I morally justified in resisting their use of force?


I thought about this for a while and I've concluded after much deliberation that I have overthought the issue.

Answer: It depends on whether the NAP is relativistic (here I mean perspective-based) or whether it works on flat fact.

If it goes on your perspective, it allows an insane man to morally justly shoot whoever he genuinely thinks is stealing his invisible golden idol.

If the NAP goes on reality, the guy from Memento (real thing, inability to encode new memories, I'm sure you know about it) can never defend without engaging in a roulette about whether it was justified because he might be the aggressor. Any of us might be. Even my memory isn't perfect (but perfect memory is supposedly a thing too - inability to forget information... totally jealous).

Both of these interpretations seem bleakly unsalvageable, but imma try to salvage one.

Yes, if you genuinely believe you did not commit the crime, you're justified in resisting.

But at the same time, if they think you did commit the crime, they're justified in trying to arrest you anyway.

Where does the reasonable doubt rest?

My thinking is that if you know you're afflicted with lycanthropy, and the crime was on the night of a full moon, and you can't remember exactly what you did, you have to go with them even if you think you were probably locked in your basement the whole time. Yes, even if you took precautions. Even if you really think you remember waking up in your restraints but there's a tiny chance you're remembering last month.

In other words, you have to be sure. If we're going with the perspective interpretation, you gain the right to resist if you know you're innocent. You do not gain that right if you're not sure. (This isn't a very beneficial perspective for someone like Socrates.)

In the flat reality interpretation, you just have to roll the dice. If you're mistaken, then you aggress. If the police are mistaken, then they aggress. I don't care much for a philosophy that makes me roll the dice on whether I'm doing right or wrong, or else be a pacifist. I prefer a philosophy where I can be reasonably fair to myself and still always do right, no dice involved.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #22 - Oct 4th, 2018 at 9:41am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 8:36pm:
To avoid being raped and/or murdered in prison?  Of course.

What is his excuse for doing that?


It's possible, but unlikely if you are truly innocent that you will even be tried, much less go to prison, but it does happen.

If you resist arrest with violence, you will certainly go to prison.

The police "excuse" for arresting people when judges issue search warrants on probable cause is that that's how our system of justice is structured.

Feel free to offer suggestions to improve it.
  
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Jeff
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #23 - Oct 4th, 2018 at 9:52am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 3rd, 2018 at 10:23pm:
Yes, if you genuinely believe you did not commit the crime, you're justified in resisting.

But at the same time, if they think you did commit the crime, they're justified in trying to arrest you anyway.

Where does the reasonable doubt rest?

If you resist arrest with violence, you will almost certainly go to prison for that.

The reasonable doubt is in the minds of jurors if your unnecessary arrest gets that far.

There are police and judges wiling to listen to informers who are making deals with prosecutors to get their sentences reduced, so you might be falsely accused and the police and judge and prosecutors will be at fault, but your options if that happens to you seem clear, and resisting the arrest with violence seems the worst choice, no matter that you feel morally justified.


  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #24 - Oct 4th, 2018 at 9:56am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 4th, 2018 at 9:41am:
It's possible, but unlikely if you are truly innocent that you will even be tried, much less go to prison, but it does happen.


Yeah, don't give me that happy horseshit about how fair our justice system is.  Bill Cosby went to prison for the rest of his life on evidence no stronger than the evidence against Brett Kavanaugh who's about to go to the USSC for the rest of his life.

What is done to inmates in our government's prison is far more heinous than most of the crimes the inmates committed to get there. 

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If you resist arrest with violence, you will certainly go to prison.



The police "excuse" for arresting people when judges issue search warrants on probable cause is that that's how our system of justice is structured.



So, the excuse for a police officer shooting me or taking me to prison when I'm innocent is that he is "only following warrants?"

The Gestapo operated under the authority of warrants also, so  you're in good company, there.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #25 - Oct 4th, 2018 at 10:53am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 4th, 2018 at 9:56am:
Yeah, don't give me that happy horseshit about how fair our justice system is.  Bill Cosby went to prison for the rest of his life on evidence no stronger than the evidence against Brett Kavanaugh who's about to go to the USSC for the rest of his life.

What is done to inmates in our government's prison is far more heinous than most of the crimes the inmates committed to get there. 


So, the excuse for a police officer shooting me or taking me to prison when I'm innocent is that he is "only following warrants?"

The Gestapo operated under the authority of warrants also, so  you're in good company, there.

I understand you to be saying that "progressives" have so corrupted our legal system that judges issue warrants without probable cause and no one can get a fair trial.

I also understand that your solution is to eliminate government entirely?
  
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lksalksa123
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #26 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 6:49am
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   From a legal standpoint, you are not justified but from a moral standpoint, perhaps you are.  Imagine that Soviet Russian spies were coming to arrest you for treason and you knew that being attained would mean the rest of your life in a Siberian camp doing manual labor with little food and being beat daily.  This scenario sounds cut and dry, yet why does it feel morally wrong to use force against American police officers?  First, the American justice system has an innocent until proven guilty system of law.  Also, though prison is terrible, you will have enough to eat and not be forced into manual labor.  If you cooperate, the chances of you being executed at the scene are slim to none (this is not the case in old Soviet Russia).  The truth is that with the American justice system you have a fighting chance to come out a free man so using force is not the best policy.
  

JWS
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Snarky Sack
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #27 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 1:37pm
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lksalksa123 wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 6:49am:
   From a legal standpoint, you are not justified but from a moral standpoint, perhaps you are.  Imagine that Soviet Russian spies were coming to arrest you for treason and you knew that being attained would mean the rest of your life in a Siberian camp doing manual labor with little food and being beat daily.  This scenario sounds cut and dry,


Not to statists.  They would say, “everyone pretty much agrees that we need a strong central government to protect us from the capitalists,  the caliphate and of course the French.  They have judges in the Soviet Union and they have no reason not to be fair, since they are paid by everyone.”

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yet why does it feel morally wrong to use force against American police officers?  First, the American justice system has an innocent until proven guilty system of law.  Also, though prison is terrible, you will have enough to eat and not be forced into manual labor. 


I  have to disagree.  In our government prisons, both the innocent and the guilty are typically beaten and raped by other prisoners, and fed a diet so unpalatable that they must supplement by outside donations to the commissary or some kind of prison hustle.  In Texas prisons, the prisoners are worked in the farm fields and prison industry and Texas is one of the few prison systems that pays inmates zero per hour for their labor.

How they expect anyone to come out of a few years of that and become a productive member of society is beyond my ken.

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If you cooperate, the chances of you being executed at the scene are slim to none (this is not the case in old Soviet Russia).  The truth is that with the American justice system you have a fighting chance to come out a free man so using force is not the best policy. 



Respectfully, Sir or Ma’am, if there is a non-zero chance that I will be subjected to the horrors of prison for no wrongdoing, I would prefer to take my chances, particularly against some affirmative-action hire who fires his or her weapon only the required minimum to stay employed.  Once shackled and in custody, escape or exoneration becomes much less likely than avoiding arrest would be, especially if one has not the funds to hire Johnny Cochran.

Even if you have Bill Cosby money, you can have your life effectively taken based on zero-evidence accusations. 


  

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Jeff
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #28 - Oct 8th, 2018 at 6:58pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 1:37pm:
In Texas prisons, the prisoners are worked in the farm fields and prison industry and Texas is one of the few prison systems that pays inmates zero per hour for their labor.

How they expect anyone to come out of a few years of that and become a productive member of society is beyond my ken.
Yes. They should be housed in nice middle class apartments and all get a guitar...

And something else... I forget what... Oh, that's right an AI sex doll of their choice! Smiley
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: If Police Come to Arrest me for a Crime I know I Never Committed . . .
Reply #29 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 7:44am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 6:58pm:
Yes. They should be housed in nice middle class apartments and all get a guitar...

And something else... I forget what... Oh, that's right an AI sex doll of their choice! Smiley


Does your sarcasm indicate that you are fine with our incredibly inhumane prisons which often house people who are guilty of nothing or "guilty" of non-violent crimes such as drug use, tax-evasion, prostitution and gambling?

How does that fit in with "maximum freedom for the most number of people?"
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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