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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights (Read 515 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #20 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 1:51pm:
That's good that you don't approve, but do you see how easy it would be to do under the inkspot system? A Party willing to steal elections could easily have enough of their people vote in close districts where they didn't live so they could win the House and the Senate and the Presidency.


It’s incredibly. Easy under our current system and elections are being stolen every year.  The ink stain system at least prevents multiple votes at a relatively low cost.   The people you fear will bring in the hordes of outsiders are not likely to say elections because all sides will do it so they will cancel each other out. 

Under your system, all evidence points to one party almost exclusively has a monopoly on voter fraud. 

Keep in mind that almost nothing I advocate is intended to be carried out as a stand-alone step toward libertarianism.  I advocate open elections with minimal enforcement of voter fraud rules after we stop the government from stealing from us.  Under full libertarianism the government is not allowed to force people to hand over money in order to do as it pleases the way it is now.  Under libertarianism, that is not possible.  So what wouldit matter who fills the positions of such a limited government?  Sure, try to keep such elections fair, but don’t spend much more than you would on security for homecoming queen elections.


  

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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #21 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:21pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:11pm:
The ink stain system at least prevents multiple votes at a relatively low cost.   The people you fear will bring in the hordes of outsiders are not likely to say elections because all sides will do it so they will cancel each other out. 


It will of course still be illegal as well as immoral and a serious blow to representative government, so "all sides" will not do it, only those who want to do away with representative government.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #22 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:25pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:11pm:
Under your system, all evidence points to one party almost exclusively has a monopoly on voter fraud. 
I don't have a system Red, I just think convicted violent felons should never be allowed to vote.

I also think that verifying who you are and where you live with a valid picture ID like our modern drivers licenses makes good sense. DMVs will provide photo IDs to non-drivers at very nominal cost. If you can't take the time to get one, and don't care to spend the small amount involved, you probably aren't going to go vote anyway.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #23 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:31pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:11pm:
Keep in mind that almost nothing I advocate is intended to be carried out as a stand-alone step toward libertarianism.  I advocate open elections with minimal enforcement of voter fraud rules after we stop the government from stealing from us.  Under full libertarianism the government is not allowed to force people to hand over money in order to do as it pleases the way it is now.  Under libertarianism, that is not possible.  So what wouldit matter who fills the positions of such a limited government?  Sure, try to keep such elections fair, but don’t spend much more than you would on security for homecoming queen elections.


That's all fine, but we aren't going to limit the government without having an actual free and fair electoral system. By fair, I mean one that takes serious steps to prevent fraud.

Under your proposed "don't worry about it" system, no matter who wins, it will be possible to claim fraud was involved and the election was stolen. And of course its always the "others" who commit the fraud.

Continued polarization and factionalism will be the result, and we don't need any more of that.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #24 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:51pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:31pm:
That's all fine, but we aren't going to limit the government without having an actual free and fair electoral system. By fair, I mean one that takes serious steps to prevent fraud.

Under your proposed "don't worry about it" system, no matter who wins, it will be possible to claim fraud was involved and the election was stolen. And of course its always the "others" who commit the fraud.


Yeah, but that's possible now.  it is indeed happening now.  Nearly all of your criticisms of a libertarian system are for things that already happen now under your system.

  

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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #25 - Oct 9th, 2018 at 4:50pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 2:51pm:
Yeah, but that's possible now.  it is indeed happening now.  Nearly all of your criticisms of a libertarian system are for things that already happen now under your system.

What libertarian system would that be?

I don't have a system. Why do you keep saying that?

What do you think my system is? The one you imagine I want to impose on the entire world?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #26 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 12:27am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:31pm:
I agree, but that doesn't necessitate any sort of pure democracy.


I never said it did. I said people have a right to a voice in how they are governed.

Our supposedly representative society provides that voice through the ability to vote for representatives.

It is because voting is the only opportunity we have for this that it can't be denied.

lksalksa123 wrote on Oct 8th, 2018 at 6:39am:
For instance, what if sex offenders could vote and then state officials started enacting laws to lighten sentences for these crimes? What if tens of thousands of pedophiles supported candidates that strove to decriminalize pedophilia?


If they have the numbers then they should get their way.

These are really horrid examples, and I'm glad they don't bloody have the numbers.

But the truth is that if most people think something should not be a crime, then it really shouldn't.

If you're worried about a vocal but powerful minority forcing their way with political action, they can do that without personally voting.

And the ultimate truth is that if paedophiles really had the numbers, they could just not offend until they had used those votes to get their way.

Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2018 at 4:50pm:
I don't have a system. Why do you keep saying that?

What do you think my system is? The one you imagine I want to impose on the entire world?


Every time you say, "X should not be legal," or "Y should be mandatory," or "This is what works best," you have added a component to your system.

You do have a system. It's simply the sum total of the policies you advocate being implemented.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #27 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:29am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 12:27am:
I never said it did. I said people have a right to a voice in how they are governed.

Our supposedly representative society provides that voice through the ability to vote for representatives.

It is because voting is the only opportunity we have for this that it can't be denied.
Yes, people have a right to form governments they hope will accomplish what those governments are designed to do.

Our federal system is designed to preserve the blessings of liberty by protecting the nation and the rights of individuals.

An essential part of the plan is divided power and divided responsibilities among the various governments and branches of governments that make up the system.

The question of who should vote is a question left for the states to decide. Some states may decide to have universal voting, others to limit the vote in various ways... As with all the powers left with the states, the outcome will be divided government at the federal level, which is conducive to the preservation of individual rights. States that might choose universal suffrage will elect representatives with different views than states which limit the vote, and that's what is wanted and necessary, different views being held and presented in our representative bodies. That is how everyone's voice is represented. (Disclaimer: I don't want the voices of convicted violent felons to be heard in the halls of government, but not letting them vote will not deny them representation. There will be people in government who are concerned about the rights of convicted violent felons whether those felons vote or not.)

Universal suffrage will tend to narrow the number of views being represented in the House to the current views of the majority, to make the government more like a pure democracy, and that is a bad result.

Of course the ideological composition of the House and Senate are much less important if the government is limited in what it can do than if the government has unlimited power to implement into law the current views of the majority no matter what those views might be.
  
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #28 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:43am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 12:27am:
Every time you say, "X should not be legal," or "Y should be mandatory," or "This is what works best," you have added a component to your system.

You do have a system. It's simply the sum total of the policies you advocate being implemented.
I have an opinion about what will make the best form of government, and it tends toward a government with minimal divided powers so that people can live as freely as possible within a civilized society.

I want individuals, as far as possible, to be able to organize their own lives and make their own choices. I want very few things to be illegal. I want governments at all levels to refrain from implementing policies unless they are policies that reduce the size and scope of government.

There is a clear distinction between wanting a government that requires everyone to be a democratic socialist in practice, and one that allows people to live in communes if that's what they choose.
  
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #29 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 11:38am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:43am:
I want individuals, as far as possible, to be able to organize their own lives and make their own choices. I want very few things to be illegal. I want governments at all levels to refrain from implementing policies unless they are policies that reduce the size and scope of government.

You also want a government that takes Robert's money, and uses that money to educate Tom's children.

No wonder Robert loathes you and others like you!
  
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