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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights (Read 205 times)
Jeff
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #30 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 1:23pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 11:38am:
You also want a government that takes Robert's money, and uses that money to educate Tom's children.

I think local property taxes collected by local governments to fund locally controlled schools that educate all the communities children are a good idea, but I don't "want" them. I want people in their own communities to be free to do that, or not, as they choose.

I'm not foolish enough to imagine that ideas of atomistic individuals living each as they choose are any sort of realistic depiction of actual human societies.

You should help Red talk some small town into abolishing taxation and funding whatever amount of local government and local government services by donations... When I see that working, I will make every effort to get my town to do the same.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #31 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:07pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 1:23pm:
You should help Red talk some small town into abolishing taxation and funding whatever amount of local government and local government services by donations... When I see that working, I will make every effort to get my town to do the same.

There are many rural towns in the US that do not impose a property tax.   Schools and roads are privately funded.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #32 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:48pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:07pm:
There are many rural towns in the US that do not impose a property tax.   Schools and roads are privately funded. 
Great. Where?

I might be mistaken, but I think there is nowhere in America that the hand of the DOE does not reach, handing out money and rules in equal measure.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #33 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 9:15pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 5:48pm:
Great. Where?

I might be mistaken, but I think there is nowhere in America that the hand of the DOE does not reach, handing out money and rules in equal measure.

Some people dont live in proper towns or cities. Some communities are a township.

A township government has an elected board of trustees or supervisors. Some additional offices, such as clerk or constable, may also be elected. 

Townships typically do not impose a Property Tax, but it's possible that some do.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #34 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 11:12pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 7:29am:
The question of who should vote is a question left for the states to decide.


Structure it however you like. There is still only one correct answer that does not violate rights: Everyone.

Everyone should be allowed to vote.

They have a right to a voice in how they are governed. If they do not have that, governance over them is illegitimate.

Riddle me this, Jeff, do you think any answer that your precious states come up with would violate rights? You say "let the states decide" as if anything they decide would be golden. What if Tennessee decided black people couldn't vote and Kansas decided people who believe in evolution couldn't vote? Would either be wrong?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #35 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 6:52am
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 9:15pm:
Some people dont live in proper towns or cities. Some communities are a township.

A township government has an elected board of trustees or supervisors. Some additional offices, such as clerk or constable, may also be elected. 

Townships typically do not impose a Property Tax, but it's possible that some do.
Unincorporated areas is what you're talking about? They lie within counties that levy property taxes to fund the county school systems and the county sheriffs and the county courts.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #36 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 7:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 11:12pm:
Structure it however you like. There is still only one correct answer that does not violate rights: Everyone.

Everyone should be allowed to vote.

If the result of everyone voting is a tyranny of democracy, everyone's rights are not likely to be respected.

This is one of those instances I've been talking about, where moral actions can have immoral results.

The idea behind the American system of government is that all points of view can be heard, and that no single ideology/party can capture the government to the detriment of other ideologies, which is something that pure democracy seems to demand.

Limiting suffrage seems like an immoral action, but if the result is the protection of minority points of view, the result is moral.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #37 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 7:08am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 11:12pm:
Riddle me this, Jeff, do you think any answer that your precious states come up with would violate rights? You say "let the states decide" as if anything they decide would be golden. What if Tennessee decided black people couldn't vote and Kansas decided people who believe in evolution couldn't vote? Would either be wrong?
The law makes it clear that the vote can't be denied for reasons of race and that our governments must remain neutral on matters of religion and conscience. It looks to me as if both of your worrisome sounding scenarios are illegal.

Try coming up with something better. It would be a welcome change to have you present a plausible scenario.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Florida Ballot Measure Restores Felon Voting Rights
Reply #38 - Oct 11th, 2018 at 7:25am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 10th, 2018 at 11:12pm:
They have a right to a voice in how they are governed. If they do not have that, governance over them is illegitimate.

Back to "all government is illegitimate"?

Or are you claiming that the government can't legitimately be considered to apply to socialists because their voices are calling for everyone to be governed by a socialist system and their voices aren't being heard?

Is it possible for every individual voice to have a direct role in the making of laws? Probably.

Is that a very bad idea? Yes.

If elections are free and fair (even if not everyone gets to vote) is it possible to elect people who will represent every ideology and viewpoint? Yes, close enough.

Does a divided government with limited powers act to best protect the rights of minorities, including the minority of each single individual? Yes, I think so.

I see it as a balancing act between the privilege of voting and the likelihood of having a government that will protect individual rights, and it looks to me as if universal suffrage is detrimental to the protection of individual and minority rights.

In your strange hypothetical, lets say the majority of people in Tennessee are Christians, and there is universal suffrage in Tennessee, and you demand that everyone's voice be heard in matters of how they will be governed...

Does that mean Tennessee should become a Christian State, and that the government of Tennessee must listen to "everyone's voice" and do what the majority demands, which might well be to only let Christians vote?
  
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