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The Opposition
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Disproportionate Force?
Oct 13th, 2018 at 1:37pm
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If you believe that defensive force can be disproportionate when in excess of the initiatory force, and thereby render the defender actually the aggressor, then it stands to reason that initiatory attackers can't lose.

If an attacker can never have force applied to him beyond what he applied, he will win if he's not stopped, and the worst that can happen to him is to be stopped - but never punished.

Punishment requires that the attacker "learn a lesson" and reconsider attacking in the future because what he gained, sum total of the attack and the punishment, turned out to be negative.

But if I stop a thief by applying more force than he applied to me, that would be disproportionate force.

This supports my long-standing theory that only draconian punishments - those far in excess of the initial force used - brought about a world where so few aggress that we can hold these ridiculous principles.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Disproportionate Force?
Reply #1 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 2:29pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 13th, 2018 at 1:37pm:
If you believe that defensive force can be disproportionate when in excess of the initiatory force, and thereby render the defender actually the aggressor, then it stands to reason that initiatory attackers can't lose.

If an attacker can never have force applied to him beyond what he applied, he will win if he's not stopped, and the worst that can happen to him is to be stopped - but never punished.

Punishment requires that the attacker "learn a lesson" and reconsider attacking in the future because what he gained, sum total of the attack and the punishment, turned out to be negative.

But if I stop a thief by applying more force than he applied to me, that would be disproportionate force.

This supports my long-standing theory that only draconian punishments - those far in excess of the initial force used - brought about a world where so few aggress that we can hold these ridiculous principles.
Refer to common law precedents lizard. Feeble little old ladies can shoot muggers. Big burly men can't shoot teenage girls picking their pockets.
  
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Josh
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Re: Disproportionate Force?
Reply #2 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 4:44pm
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Of course they can be punished. For example, if someone went out and killed someone (initiating force), that person could be justifiably killed using Proportionality Theory. That would be a punishment. Or less force could be applied to that person, in the form of prison. Both punishments. Both proportionate.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Disproportionate Force?
Reply #3 - Oct 13th, 2018 at 5:16pm
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Josh wrote on Oct 13th, 2018 at 4:44pm:
Of course they can be punished. For example, if someone went out and killed someone (initiating force), that person could be justifiably killed using Proportionality Theory. That would be a punishment. Or less force could be applied to that person, in the form of prison. Both punishments. Both proportionate. 
Right, an eye for an eye.

For an interpretation of the morality of that sort of thing, a mind scientist like Red would be the best one to help you understand it...
  
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