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The Opposition
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Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Oct 15th, 2018 at 11:01pm
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https://qz.com/africa/1327833/kenya-is-following-nigeria-in-running-a-massive-bu...

Read for yourself. Everyone deserves to be handed boatloads of cash except the working people.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #1 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 1:10am
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It sounds like another taxpayer-funded UBI scheme to me.

The UBI recipients love it  - they get money for for doing nothing.

Naturally, the workers (taxpayers) are less enthusiastic, since it's their hard-earned wealth that pays the UBI stipends.
  
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BobK71
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #2 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 9:06am
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As much as I am a free-market believer, in its own way, this is a positive development.

Why do these things happen?  It's because the usual 'capitalism' (note the quotes!) has failed.  Whether it's YouWin, the New Deal, or Universal Basic Income, politics is calling on the government to step in to dull the pain of the bust side of the boom and bust cycle.  We have to understand that the cycle was not a product of the free market, but of the centrally planned money system, designed to benefit the elites.

When the 'system of private capital' refuses to fund any project, the government steps in with capital of its own.  Since capital markets have never really been free, and since both the boom and the bust can be traced back to the state-bank alliance that over-extended credit during boom years to benefit the elites, there is a strong case that the government and the elites are responsible for the bust.

The relief policies are desirable for multiple reasons.  They relieve suffering that comes not necessarily from personal failings but a failed system.  They help weaken the world system by generating inflation, thus exposing the faux-money that Western elites depend on for their power.  They tend to strengthen public belief in non-state money, which will in turn help keep future elites in check.

Since we don't really have a free market, why do anything to pretend otherwise?  The quicker and more explicitly people understand we don't really have a free market, the earlier the world will get a real one.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #3 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:45am
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 9:06am:
As much as I am a free-market believer, in its own way, this is a positive development.

Why do these things happen?  It's because the usual 'capitalism' (note the quotes!) has failed.  Whether it's YouWin, the New Deal, or Universal Basic Income, politics is calling on the government to step in to dull the pain of the bust side of the boom and bust cycle.  We have to understand that the cycle was not a product of the free market, but of the centrally planned money system, designed to benefit the elites.

When the 'system of private capital' refuses to fund any project, the government steps in with capital of its own.  Since capital markets have never really been free, and since both the boom and the bust can be traced back to the state-bank alliance that over-extended credit during boom years to benefit the elites, there is a strong case that the government and the elites are responsible for the bust.

The relief policies are desirable for multiple reasons.  They relieve suffering that comes not necessarily from personal failings but a failed system.  They help weaken the world system by generating inflation, thus exposing the faux-money that Western elites depend on for their power.  They tend to strengthen public belief in non-state money, which will in turn help keep future elites in check.

Since we don't really have a free market, why do anything to pretend otherwise?  The quicker and more explicitly people understand we don't really have a free market, the earlier the world will get a real one.
Business cycles are a part of free markets Bob, an essential part.

Your essential argument seems to be that bad government, exercising too much control of economies, has made a mess of them, so it is essential for government to step in and try to alleviate the pain it has caused, which will inevitably make things worse and eventually (soon?) collapse the economy entirely, then the ensuing chaos will somehow enable people to see that it was government intervention that caused all the problems, and they will suddenly clamor for a free economy?

Out of a "desirable" anarchy, true liberty will certainly arise?

More likely a new Napoleon...

Edit: What's happening in Venezuela? Are people realizing that they need a free economy yet?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #4 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 11:07am
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 9:06am:
Since we don't really have a free market, why do anything to pretend otherwise?  The quicker and more explicitly people understand we don't really have a free market, the earlier the world will get a real one.


I think we do have a free market, because the non-free elements you often discuss have arisen out of non-aggressive actions. No one cheated. Everyone worked within the system.

This is what a free market looks like after it's had time to produce clear winners and losers, and the winners have had time to use their winnings to make sure they stay on top.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #5 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 11:18am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 11:07am:
I think we do have a free market, because the non-free elements you often discuss have arisen out of non-aggressive actions. No one cheated. Everyone worked within the system.

It's "the system" that prevents our economy from being free.

When for instance, a government requires a license to engage in your chosen occupation, you are coerced into obtaining that license and spending the time and money to obtain it.

I know that your narrow definition of aggression and your boneheaded insistence on thinking the NAP is a principle that should rule all human thought and action prevents you from defining coercion by the government as "aggression", but no matter what you call it, when government controls elements of the economy and the individuals who seek to participate in the economy, the economy is not free.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #6 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 12:08pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 9:06am:
When the 'system of private capital' refuses to fund any project, the government steps in with capital of its own
Bob, the government doesn't HAVE any "capital of its own own".

All of the capital the government has originates as private capital.

"Not thinking things through is the cornerstone of statist thought."  - SnarkySack
  
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BobK71
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #7 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:45am:
Business cycles are a part of free markets Bob, an essential part.

Your essential argument seems to be that bad government, exercising too much control of economies, has made a mess of them, so it is essential for government to step in and try to alleviate the pain it has caused, which will inevitably make things worse and eventually (soon?) collapse the economy entirely, then the ensuing chaos will somehow enable people to see that it was government intervention that caused all the problems, and they will suddenly clamor for a free economy?

Out of a "desirable" anarchy, true liberty will certainly arise?

More likely a new Napoleon...

Edit: What's happening in Venezuela? Are people realizing that they need a free economy yet?


We are talking about a potentially multi-century process, Jeff, where people finally realize how the system is rigged, ie through the control of money.  (It's not going to happen with Venezuela.)

Yes, mainstream economists would have you believe that the 'business cycle' is caused by none other than the free market.  Even if free markets have a way of cycling through different types of overreaction, the centrally planned money system must make it much worse.  (I'm erring on being too careful not to overstate my case here.)

It's not exactly the government that created the boom/bust cycle, it's the government-bank alliance.  With inflationary, post-crisis relief of pain by the government (typically without the approval by the bankers, this time,) we can certainly argue if it's a good thing in our lifetime.  But I'm looking at the very, very long term.
  
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BobK71
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #8 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:14pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 11:07am:
I think we do have a free market, because the non-free elements you often discuss have arisen out of non-aggressive actions. No one cheated. Everyone worked within the system.

This is what a free market looks like after it's had time to produce clear winners and losers, and the winners have had time to use their winnings to make sure they stay on top.


Yes, I remember from posts past, I guess we fundamentally disagree on what is immoral.  (I'm not totally familiar with the non-aggression principle, but it seems unworkable due to lack of enforcement mechanisms that incentivize stability -- as I mentioned before and try not to repeat here.)

You seem to think if the powers that be rig a market, say by manipulating prices with the government's money, it's OK.  And somehow you believe my remedy to the situation, that is, public awareness enough to vote out people who do this, is immoral.

That's OK, we can agree to disagree (as long as I didn't mischaracterize our differences.)
  
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Jeff
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #9 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:37pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:02pm:
We are talking about a potentially multi-century process...
Maybe you are, but nobody else is, probably because standard model crystal balls can't see more than about a week into the future for certain.

Are you making predictions from some computer model? Who created the model you are using?
  
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