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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers (Read 214 times)
Jeff
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #10 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:40pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:02pm:
Yes, mainstream economists would have you believe that the 'business cycle' is caused by none other than the free market.
I don't know what is "mainstream" now, or not, but anyone can understand what the business cycle is and why it happens and has to happen. It's old knowledge and basic stuff. It's a part of how free economies work and improve themselves.


  
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #11 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:51pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:02pm:
It's not exactly the government that created the boom/bust cycle, it's the government-bank alliance.
You just create your own version of the past? I guess that's pretty standard.

What I know happened is that Keynesians talked national governments into taking control of the supply of money through the auspices of Central Banks granted the power to create money in order to stop the business cycle that is an essential part of how free economies work.

The elite experts imagined that they could control things so there would be a constantly growing healthy economy and never a downturn/recession again, ever!

The were (and are) delusional. They created the Roaring '20s bubble, and turned the great recession that inevitably followed their bubble by controlling the economy even more with more bad policies and created the Great Depression that lasted until the New Deal programs were mostly abandoned after WWII.

That's a badly run on sentence. Sorry. I think trying to read thermie's posts is having a bad effect on me. I'll stop.
  
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #12 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:55pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:02pm:
With inflationary, post-crisis relief of pain by the government (typically without the approval by the bankers, this time,) we can certainly argue if it's a good thing in our lifetime.  But I'm looking at the very, very long term.
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #13 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:24pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:14pm:
Yes, I remember from posts past, I guess we fundamentally disagree on what is immoral.


Probably not since I'm willing to accept anyone's consistent moral philosophy.

BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:14pm:
(I'm not totally familiar with the non-aggression principle, but it seems unworkable due to lack of enforcement mechanisms that incentivize stability -- as I mentioned before and try not to repeat here.)


I agree.

BobK71 wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:14pm:
You seem to think if the powers that be rig a market, say by manipulating prices with the government's money, it's OK.  And somehow you believe my remedy to the situation, that is, public awareness enough to vote out people who do this, is immoral.


I think that with any governmental system in place, the best manipulators will manipulate it to gain self-advantage. I certainly don't think you attempting to have people vote a certain way constitutes aggression, but I do think it's an exercise in futility since if they were capable of outsmarting the manipulators, they would be the manipulators.

What I'm disagreeing with you on is when you say the manipulation isn't a legit free market.

With government, the government will be manipulated. Without government, you get Somalia.

Unless a free market is definitionally impossible (like a number inequal to itself), "but, that's not a real free market" is very much like the argument communists use when communism fails.

I call it the cockroach fallacy, for the following reason.

Have you ever had a lazy roommate who wanted to leave food around without cleaning it up? They'll think of all kinds of crazy ways to prevent roaches, but the truth is that even though leaving food out is not synonymous with cockroaches, it can't help but create cockroaches. Any amount of "but we didn't"s or "maybe we should've"s won't change that.

Communists need to look at why their philosophy fails so consistently. So do capitalists.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #14 - Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:30pm
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Ooops... sorry




« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2018 at 9:46am by SkyChief »  
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #15 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 6:50am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:24pm:
Probably not since I'm willing to accept anyone's consistent moral philosophy.


Stop thinking like a child lizard, take control of your own thoughts and reject the (very consistent) morality of tyranny! Perhaps then you'll be able to stop saying silly things like "freedom inevitably destroys freedom".
  
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #16 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 6:56am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:24pm:
I agree.


You agree what? That a principle that says initiating aggression is wrong doesn't have magic powers to enforce itself?

You and Bob must have some strange and incomprehensible ideas about what principles actually are.

Not even laws have magic powers to enforce themselves, even if they are based on sound principles... There are fairly standard ways of enforcing the common law, which is broadly based on the principle that initiating aggression is wrong.
  
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #17 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 7:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:24pm:
"but, that's not a real free market" is very much like the argument communists use when communism fails.


Communism fails because people refuse to be communists no matter how tyrannical the government trying to force them to be communists becomes.

Free markets are not allowed to exist because governments don't like them...

Do you see the fundamental differences?

Here's a timely article about the results of government intervention in markets-

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/10-years-later-assessing-dangerous-...
  
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BobK71
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #18 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 10:57am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 10:24pm:
I think that with any governmental system in place, the best manipulators will manipulate it to gain self-advantage. I certainly don't think you attempting to have people vote a certain way constitutes aggression, but I do think it's an exercise in futility since if they were capable of outsmarting the manipulators, they would be the manipulators.

What I'm disagreeing with you on is when you say the manipulation isn't a legit free market.

With government, the government will be manipulated. Without government, you get Somalia.

Unless a free market is definitionally impossible (like a number inequal to itself), "but, that's not a real free market" is very much like the argument communists use when communism fails.

I call it the cockroach fallacy, for the following reason.

Have you ever had a lazy roommate who wanted to leave food around without cleaning it up? They'll think of all kinds of crazy ways to prevent roaches, but the truth is that even though leaving food out is not synonymous with cockroaches, it can't help but create cockroaches. Any amount of "but we didn't"s or "maybe we should've"s won't change that.

Communists need to look at why their philosophy fails so consistently. So do capitalists.


There's a lot of truth to what you argue, and I sense in a profound way.  My view though, is that, *given* you have to leave food around, any cockroach-fighting scheme is a good step, especially if it concerns a major issue like the control of money.

I'm beginning to understand the philosophies of Schopenhauer and Aldous Huxley, that 'all institutions fail.'  This is due to our hard-wired psyche of working well as a small community (say, 150 people or so maximum) but not a larger one.  We're just not hard-wired to empathize with more than those we know and so we don't, at heart, care about the principles that make larger groups work.  (The Jewish and Christian sense of 'original sin' is probably based on this.)

I think the food was sprayed around the room as soon as our brains got big (an after-effect of walking upright, they say.)  Our big brains realized empires are possible, and that those villages content to live on with their 150 populations will have no choice but be subjugated.  The truly authentic community was broken at this point.  I don't think anyone has proposed a solution to this problem.

As both religions stress, having original sin is no excuse not to try to fight it.  Unless you want to surrender to total anarchy (even Somalia at its worst was organized around loyalty to warlords,) there is no choice but to keep thinking about, e.g. what kind of social awareness brings about the best incentives for our leaders.
  
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #19 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 11:23am
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 10:57am:
There's a lot of truth to what you argue, and I sense in a profound way.  My view though, is that, *given* you have to leave food around, any cockroach-fighting scheme is a good step, especially if it concerns a major issue like the control of money.

I'm beginning to understand the philosophies of Schopenhauer and Aldous Huxley, that 'all institutions fail.'  This is due to our hard-wired psyche of working well as a small community (say, 150 people or so maximum) but not a larger one.  We're just not hard-wired to empathize with more than those we know and so we don't, at heart, care about the principles that make larger groups work.  (The Jewish and Christian sense of 'original sin' is probably based on this.)

I think the food was sprayed around the room as soon as our brains got big (an after-effect of walking upright, they say.)  Our big brains realized empires are possible, and that those villages content to live on with their 150 populations will have no choice but be subjugated.  The truly authentic community was broken at this point.  I don't think anyone has proposed a solution to this problem.

As both religions stress, having original sin is no excuse not to try to fight it.  Unless you want to surrender to total anarchy (even Somalia at its worst was organized around loyalty to warlords,) there is no choice but to keep thinking about, e.g. what kind of social awareness brings about the best incentives for our leaders.


You're so right it hurts.

Yes, we should try to fight this inevitability, but the people must change.

Some people (Asians particularly) are already in the process. To have the sort of liberty enshrined by those who love freedom, we need honourable people who won't break the rules, even if they can get away with it.

A selective process must lead to that.

There is only one such: The expected value of every crime (and even every cheat, or gaming of the system) must be negative. This must proceed long enough to wipe out cheaters from the system.

The trouble is that we only let it proceed long enough to wipe out most cheaters. Then we implement liberty and cheaters, unfettered by tyrants, proceed to win evolution again. They multiply and destroy the system, because a system of all cheaters doesn't work.

You'd enjoy my post about why I think all systems are doomed to fail. It's related to this.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bin/freedom/YaBB.pl?num=1526096155/0
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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