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BobK71
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #20 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 1:18pm
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To clarify and expand on my reply to Opposition (without having read any replies to it):

We also don't face a dichotomy between 'Somalia' and today's version of crony capitalism.  Within the last hundred years (a fraction of the monetary-imperial era that started around 1500,) at least in the West, we've made qualitative progress in spreading the cost of financial busts more equitably among the public, the elites, and the elites' system.  The Great Depression marked a turning point where, for the first time at the top of the imperial system, imperial currency was devalued against gold to (partially) ease public suffering.  Today, even a Great-Depression level of public suffering would not be politically possible in the West.  Previous to the Great Depression, Britain and the US never devalued against gold post-crisis (in the name of protecting the sanctity of the gold standard -- but in reality protecting the elites' system,) thus causing even more of the pain to fall on the public.

As Barry Eichengreen (acknowledged by mainstream commentators as the foremost monetary historian) wrote, the rise of trade unions and universal suffrage in the West during the 20th century pretty much made the gold standard untenable.  This is progress (though I understand some here might find this odd, but I'll be happy to explain at length.)  We live in a better world than the 19th century, in the West, due to this progress.  There are gradations of darkness in this fundamentally criminal and deceptive system, and public awareness and power is what can and has made a difference.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #21 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 5:25pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 1:18pm:
...at least in the West, we've made qualitative progress in spreading the cost of financial busts more equitably among the public, the elites, and the elites' system.
"Qualitative progress"?

The cost of financial busts must be born by those who invested their money poorly and ran their businesses poorly. Others are not responsible for the results of their decisions, they are.

Spreading the costs "equitably" when most of the public did not have their money invested poorly, usually because they didn't have much money to invest, is a very immoral idea...

Some people mortgaged the farm to buy speculative stocks. After all, the government was saying that the boom would never end, they'd figured out how to stop the business cycle. Smiley

And they did. They stopped just short of allowing a recovery and kept things there, flatlined as they intended until after WWII.
  
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BobK71
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #22 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 7:56pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 at 5:40pm:
I don't know what is "mainstream" now, or not, but anyone can understand what the business cycle is and why it happens and has to happen. It's old knowledge and basic stuff. It's a part of how free economies work and improve themselves.


A believer of economics as a science.  In this forum!
  
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BobK71
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Re: Everyone Deserves Money Except Workers
Reply #23 - Oct 17th, 2018 at 8:08pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 11:23am:
You're so right it hurts.

It's not every day that we find someone who share a deeper understanding with us.  In this, and on this topic, we're very lucky.
The Opposition wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 11:23am:
Yes, we should try to fight this inevitability, but the people must change.

Some people (Asians particularly) are already in the process. To have the sort of liberty enshrined by those who love freedom, we need honourable people who won't break the rules, even if they can get away with it.

A selective process must lead to that.

There is only one such: The expected value of every crime (and even every cheat, or gaming of the system) must be negative. This must proceed long enough to wipe out cheaters from the system.

The trouble is that we only let it proceed long enough to wipe out most cheaters. Then we implement liberty and cheaters, unfettered by tyrants, proceed to win evolution again. They multiply and destroy the system, because a system of all cheaters doesn't work.

It seems to me, what is happening is that cheating is getting more sophisticated at each major step.  It's progress, isn't it, that modern imperial elites can't just take, but must use a combination of power, deception, and real services to the public, to get their pound of flesh?  When we take the power of money from them, they'll probably find something else, but that world should still be superior to ours.
The Opposition wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 at 11:23am:
You'd enjoy my post about why I think all systems are doomed to fail. It's related to this.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bin/freedom/YaBB.pl?num=1526096155/0


Thanks, I'll try to reply in that thread.
  
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