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The Opposition
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Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Oct 18th, 2018 at 11:17am
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Why should I pay for cat food, if I don't even own a cat?

(I do own a cat and I do pay for cat food. For the pretending-to-be-dense: This is a metaphor.)



This metaphor is for the purposes of elucidating that then the public pays for education for everyone, it does not help the public and it is a pure wealth transfer from the public to the business owners.

The employer has the same amount of jobs to fill, regardless of how many people are educated for those jobs.

If no one is educated, then the employer will simply have to pick the candidate with the highest aptitude and train him for the job.

If one person gets educated, then it is reasonable that the employer picks him over the others that are not educated. Good for him - but he should pay for that advantage himself.

If everyone gets educated, the employer is back to picking the candidate with the highest aptitude, with the public, rather than the employer, having paid to train him!!!

Education does provide an advantage, but it is a purely competitive advantage. It disappears when everyone gets it. You cannot use universal education to have more people employed - education is for those who can afford it to buy an advantage over those who either cannot afford it or have not the patience and dedication to stick through it.

Education. does. not. create. more. jobs.

It helps individual people compete for individual jobs.

More than that, universal education is the public is buying something for the employer that only benefits the employer, and not the public.

The employer still chooses the same applicant he would have if no one got educated. The only difference is that he doesn't have to train that applicant.

What's even worse is that employer finickiness has only increased as a result of making sure every can of cat food is a Fancy Feast. With so many qualified and overqualified applicants, the cats get pickier and pickier at searching even harder for the very creme de la creme.

But libertarians like redistribution if it flows to the businesses, don't you?

It's an inefficient way to train workers, because they're not being trained for your specific job, but what do you care? You, the business owners, aren't paying for it. You're only benefiting from it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #1 - Oct 18th, 2018 at 11:50am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 11:17am:
But libertarians like redistribution if it flows to the businesses, don't you?

Libertarians don't like any redistribution. 

"The Libertarian Party is fundamentally opposed to the use of force to coerce people into doing anything. We think it is inherently wrong and should have no role in a civilized society. Thus, we think that government forcing people to pay taxes is inherently wrong."

https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #2 - Oct 18th, 2018 at 2:45pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 11:17am:
The employer has the same amount of jobs to fill, regardless of how many people are educated for those jobs.
People often seek to become educated so they can start their own businesses and become their own employers.

You can't make good deductions about a dynamic system that includes people (in fact is created and sustained and modified constantly by people) by assuming a static world.

Edit: I know you are poking at me for my belief that every child should have an opportunity to get a basic education, and that the best way to provide it is local property taxes funding local schools under local parental control.

Claiming the pure libertarian high road and saying that all schools should be private is fine...

If only half of the adults in your community are working, there are going to be a lot of children whose parents can't afford tuition. Of course a free economy will make it possible for a lot more people to have enough money to pay tuition, but the American model for public schooling arose in a mostly free economy. I attended public schools like that. My parents went to the PTA meetings and knew people on the school board. Between the parents and the teachers and the school board, curricula were established and books chosen for courses of study. It worked pretty well, and every child in the community had a chance to get a pretty good education.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #3 - Oct 18th, 2018 at 2:58pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 11:17am:
Why should I pay for cat food, if I don't even own a cat?

Right. Why should you pay for schools if you don't have children? Why should you pay for police when you can afford private security?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #4 - Oct 18th, 2018 at 3:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 2:58pm:
Right. Why should you pay for schools if you don't have children? Why should you pay for police when you can afford private security?


If I do have children, why should I deduct from my funds to educate them and give it to the state to educate other people's children?

There is no logic that dictates that which would not also dictate that money should be deducted from my funds to feed my children in order to feed other people's children.

Unless you think education is more important than food.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #5 - Oct 18th, 2018 at 5:27pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 3:42pm:
If I do have children, why should I deduct from my funds to educate them and give it to the state to educate other people's children?
So that every child in your community has an opportunity to get an education?

But don't give money to the "state" for education, keep them out of it. And the feds too.

Try to think along the lines I am proposing to you, local taxes, local schools under local control, including parents and teachers. (And not International Teacher's Unions either! Angry)

The state has no legitimate role. Neither do the feds. Neither do International Unions, or even State Unions.

What, do they claim their "police powers" (which the feds don't possess) allow them to dictate to local communities about how they should educate the children of the community?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #6 - Oct 18th, 2018 at 5:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 5:27pm:
So that every child in your community has an opportunity to get an education?


But don't give money to the state for "education", keep them out of it. And the feds too.

Try to think along the lines I am proposing to you, local taxes, local schools under local control, including parents and teachers. (And not International Teacher's Unions either! Angry)

The state has no legitimate role. Neither do the feds.

What, do they claim their "police powers" (which the feds don't possess) allow them to dictate to local communities about how they should educate the children of the community?


Point you’re dodging, Jeff, is that the “right” you claim for a community to steal from its members for education would also have to include the “right” to steal to feed the children since they can’t learn when they’re starving.

Once you invent a “right to steal,” as long as it’s for something noble-sounding, there’s no end to it as we can plainly see.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #7 - Oct 18th, 2018 at 5:50pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 5:30pm:
Point you’re dodging, Jeff, is that the “right” you claim for a community to steal from its members for education would also have to include the “right” to steal to feed the children since they can’t learn when they’re starving.


I have not claimed that children have a right to a free education, but I do believe a community has a right to tax itself in order to accomplish things the community thinks are worthwhile.

I have asked you repeatedly, and you have slithered away from answering every time-

How would you stop a community from deciding that it should tax itself in order to do whatever it wanted to do?

You have yet to choose your preferred method of stopping local property taxes from being imposed for purposes of funding schools...

Do you prefer that the State Police intervene, or the Feds?
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #8 - Oct 18th, 2018 at 10:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 2:45pm:
People often seek to become educated so they can start their own businesses and become their own employers.

You can't make good deductions about a dynamic system that includes people (in fact is created and sustained and modified constantly by people) by assuming a static world.


You're moving the goal posts. You originally said that educating all the children was so they could become employed.

But with the new goal posts, fine. Free educations for anyone who is willing to give entrepreneurship a go. And only after obstacles to starting a business, like licensing, are removed. Not before.

Because until those obstacles are removed, yes, the business world is pretty much static. That's the point of the obstacles. (Walmart, for example, employs a full 1% of America, and they're not going to be displaced any time soon.)

I'm not addressing free educations in a world with less restrictions on opening up shop. I'm addressing it in this world, where all it does is redistribute from the people to the businesses because everyone's taxes are paying for training the businesses' employees.

Jeff wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 2:45pm:
I know you are poking at me for my belief that every child should have an opportunity to get a basic education, and that the best way to provide it is local property taxes funding local schools under local parental control.


Not at all. You just have to be straight with me and I'll be the one upholding your arguments. If it's about more power to the big businesses, so be it. I do not care.

I just can't uphold what isn't consistent. The minute you have an honest conversation with me and stop the eely electron shit, I'll accept what you say is true.

Jeff wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 2:45pm:
Claiming the pure libertarian high road and saying that all schools should be private is fine...


You've clearly got the libertarian high road here: Advantage, businesses. Everyone else pays for it.

Jeff wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 2:45pm:
If only half of the adults in your community are working, there are going to be a lot of children whose parents can't afford tuition.


I want you to clarify something for me. You've said communities should have the right to tax themselves and provide education to those in need.

Should the people actually paying the taxes have a say?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #9 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 7:56am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 5:50pm:
I have not claimed that children have a right to a free education, but I do believe a community has a right to tax itself in order to accomplish things the community thinks are worthwhile.


Oh, so not just education, but all the things the community thinks are worthwhile.

So you do advocate welfare.

Quote:
I have asked you repeatedly, and you have slithered away from answering every time-

How would you stop a community from deciding that it should tax itself in order to do whatever it wanted to do?



As I answered before:  If the main purpose of the strong federal government under our constitution isn't to prevent states/cities/communities from passing laws restricting the rights of citizens, what good is it?

Quote:
You have yet to choose your preferred method of stopping local property taxes from being imposed for purposes of funding schools...


I choose that the federal government ban such thievery and put the would-be thieves into humane prisons until they are fully reformed. 

Quote:
Do you prefer that the State Police intervene, or the Feds?


The county should have first chance to stop an planned armed robbery by "communities."  If counties fail to enforce property rights, the state steps in.  If states are going along with it, the feds come in.

I don't feel any better about being robbed by "local people" than I do about being robbed by bureaucrats in DC. 

Try to get people to pay for your leisure lifestyle with private donations, Jeff.  If that doesn't happen, admit that not enough people want to spend their hard-earned money supporting you and educating your kids while you spend all day on the internet.


[/quote]
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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