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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #10 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 8:15am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 10:32pm:
You're moving the goal posts. You originally said that educating all the children was so they could become employed.

But with the new goal posts, fine. Free educations for anyone who is willing to give entrepreneurship a go. And only after obstacles to starting a business, like licensing, are removed. Not before.

Educated people make better neighbors and are more likely to be self supporting, but I think there is a moral issue as well- Should any child be denied an opportunity to get an education simply because his/her parents are poor?

Certainly some people with no formal education at all are able to work and support themselves and sometimes even start their own businesses, but living in a modern society as an illiterate and innumerate person makes it unlikely that you will find employment or start a business, and as the lizard keeps saying, their is a strong correlation between poverty and crime...

BTW, children of single parent families are also highly likely to drop out of school...
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #11 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 8:18am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 10:32pm:
You've clearly got the libertarian high road here: Advantage, businesses. Everyone else pays for it.


Businesses also pay property taxes, and because their business property is often very valuable, they often pay lots of property tax.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #12 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 8:22am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 18th, 2018 at 10:32pm:
Should the people actually paying the taxes have a say?
They do have a say in the levying of local taxes, through their local representatives and often through requirements that tax increases be approved by popular vote.

You still won't tell me how you plan to stop local communities from laying and collecting property taxes to pay for public schools.

You think it is immoral and should not be allowed to happen in a "libertarian society", so, tell me how pure libertarians would act to stop it.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #13 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 11:02am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 8:15am:
Educated people make better neighbors and are more likely to be self supporting,


This is where you make the fundamental mistake of confusing a purely competitive advantage with other kinds of advantages.

I wish I had a clip to show you, but there used to be a game show where one of the games involved three contestants who got three balls each, then mixing the balls up in a hopper and rolling them down this cute little race track.

Each contestant was given the opportunity to take $1000 of his winnings so far and purchase a fourth ball. Everyone almost always purchased the fourth ball and I laughed my Vulcan ass off at this prime example of Human illogicality and blind selfishness. (Logic dictates the selfishness required to pursue winning be suspended for this particular game.)

Can you see the fundamental mistake here? Minus $1000 from each contestant, for nothing. Because the fourth ball is a pure competitive advantage that stops helping anyone when universalised.

(Burnsy will recognise that there's a somewhat analogous psychological study out there that tested whether Humans could understand universalisability, and it found that they could not. If both subjects picked B, they would gain $5 apiece, but if both picked A, each would get nothing. If one picked A and the other picked B, the one who picked B would lose $5 and the one who picked A would gain $10. Everyone picked A and got nothing, because they were illogical $%#&ing Humans who interestingly enough all understand that their species is composed of wet garbage but don't do anything to remedy this.)

Jeff wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 8:15am:
but I think there is a moral issue as well- Should any child be denied an opportunity to get an education simply because his/her parents are poor?


If you don't like the children of poor parents being at a disadvantage when job-hunting because they got less education, you have a fundamental disagreement with what education is: A purely competitive advantage.

Firstly, do you think the cats will really starve themselves to death because they don't get the perfect applicant who has all the experience and all the education? "Oh, I have this great business plan and I can make ever so much money but not if I have to train my workers myself! I'd rather just not make any money than that!"

Secondly, you've been duped by the same political agenda the poor people have been duped by: The lie that their little Bumbling Billy is somehow helped to get the job over Smarty Sally by dumping loads of education onto him at everyone's expense. He's not. Since everyone is being educated, you added +5 to Billy and +5 to Sally. If she started out more, she's still more. You just gave exactly the same advantage to everyone. You helped no one - and it was extremely expensive.

Now admittedly, if you're not actually interested in universal education, and what you really want is to play hide-the-apple with the massive amounts of government funding so that it simultaneously inflates that market, prices the middle class out of college, and makes sure poor people can go, you can advantage Bumbling Billy over Smarty Sally, if Sally is middle class. If that's the goal, then just say so, and I'll support it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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The Opposition
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #14 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 11:16am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 8:22am:
They do have a say in the levying of local taxes, through their local representatives and often through requirements that tax increases be approved by popular vote.


And you do understand that the minority is going to have no say, right? Whether through pure democracy or representative democracy, once the threshold is passed of only 49% of people paying the taxes, they'll be robbed for everything from schools to universal pomegranate juice for all, and nobody can stop them.

Jeff wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 8:22am:
You still won't tell me how you plan to stop local communities from laying and collecting property taxes to pay for public schools.


I was never discussing stopping them. I don't care what they do. I care about what's right and wrong.

Jeff wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 8:22am:
You think it is immoral and should not be allowed to happen in a "libertarian society", so, tell me how pure libertarians would act to stop it.


No, I don't say it's wrong for taxes to pay for schools. I say that if it's right that taxes pay for schools, then it's equally right if communities want to tax themselves for welfare.

You think it is immoral and should not be allowed to happen in a "libertarian society" for communities to tax themselves to feed and house the poor, so tell me how pure libertarians would act to stop it.

Your own words can be just as much applied to welfare as public schools.

There is no answer as to how to stop it. Yet libertarians declare it wrong anyway. So why can't anyone else declare things wrong without having a way to stop them on hand? If I concoct the perfect crime, and prove, logically, that no one can stop me, does that make it right?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #15 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 11:44am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 11:02am:
Secondly, you've been duped by the same political agenda the poor people have been duped by: The lie that their little Bumbling Billy is somehow helped to get the job over Smarty Sally by dumping loads of education onto him at everyone's expense. He's not. Since everyone is being educated, you added +5 to Billy and +5 to Sally. If she started out more, she's still more. You just gave exactly the same advantage to everyone. You helped no one - and it was extremely expensive.



Now, because of standardized testing to make sure, "everyone learns the same,"  a huge percentage of a school's budget must be spent on "interventions," which are supposed to help kids with learning disabilities understand algebra and analyze poetry.  It's like teaching a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Even if kids have the ability to learn, they won't if they don't have the motivation.  Yet we force them to attend school day in and day out whether they like it or  not.  Then we act surprised that they act a fool and spend more money coming up with behavioral interventions. 

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #16 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 12:19pm
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  Much of your argument follows a logical pattern but leaves out key details.  First, there would be a mass of immigration from country’s where training programs occur if we had none.  They would flood the job market with skills.  Also, there would most certainly be a hit to people emerging into the middle class if poor families had to pay for their children to go through k-12.  That doesn’t mean that I agree with the amount of money the nation spends on education.  Also, the amount of time young men and woman are expected to go to school, some being quite old, at least by historical standards, before they ever get their first real job.  Certainly businesses are profiting from the American people training their employees in the educational system, yet everyone enjoys the benefits of cheaper products, more products/innovation, and more money to put towards job creation and tax revenue.
  

JWS
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #17 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 3:11pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 11:16am:
And you do understand that the minority is going to have no say, right? Whether through pure democracy or representative democracy, once the threshold is passed of only 49% of people paying the taxes, they'll be robbed for everything from schools to universal pomegranate juice for all, and nobody can stop them.


Only if the form of government is democracy and their are no limits placed on that government... But of course pure democracy has no limits, which is why it should be avoided at all costs.
  
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #18 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 3:14pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 11:16am:
I was never discussing stopping them. I don't care what they do. I care about what's right and wrong.


Red says it's an immoral denial of the rights of people to tax them to support public schools. I asked Red how he proposed to prevent (in libertarian fashion) the people in my town from taxing property to fund schools.
  
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #19 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 3:20pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 11:16am:
No, I don't say it's wrong for taxes to pay for schools. I say that if it's right that taxes pay for schools, then it's equally right if communities want to tax themselves for welfare.

I didn't say it was "right" to tax for schools, just that it's a good idea to offer every child the opportunity to get a basic education, and that people in communities long ago decided that property taxes were a good way to do it, and I agree.

I also said it's a bad idea to tax for purposes of redistributing wealth, because it's been proven to have such bad effects, but that if a community wants to tax it's members for purposes of "welfare", absent laws that prevent such things, there is no 'libertarian' way to stop them.

Red is trying to think of one...
  
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