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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #20 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 3:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 11:16am:
There is no answer as to how to stop it. Yet libertarians declare it wrong anyway.
Perhaps the sort of libertarian who declares that all taxation is theft and all government is immoral would declare that local taxes used to support local schools under local control is "wrong", but they also say that having a police force and courts as a part of local government is wrong.

Anyway, the way to stop it is what Red proposed, convince people that schools and police and courts will be provided voluntarily and supported by donations, then people will abolish taxation for those purposes.

Red is probably working on that in some small town somewhere as we speak, so as to produce a model of the libertarian future that everyone will want to follow... Maybe not. Maybe he's just ranting that taxation is theft and government is immoral.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #21 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 3:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 3:14pm:
Red says it's an immoral denial of the rights of people to tax them to support public schools. I asked Red how he proposed to prevent (in libertarian fashion) the people in my town from taxing property to fund schools.


I answer you now for the third and final time:  when communities try to take rights from individuals, their county, state and federal government must step in and protect those individual rights.  What on earth would be the reason to have layers of government if not to the upper layers to hold the lower ones accountable for protecting rights?

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #22 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 4:21pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 3:42pm:
I answer you now for the third and final time:  when communities try to take rights from individuals, their county, state and federal government must step in and protect those individual rights.  What on earth would be the reason to have layers of government if not to the upper layers to hold the lower ones accountable for protecting rights?

You are right in the essentials, and I agree.

The problem arises when some county elects representatives in a democratic fashion suitable to a republican form of government, and those representatives are granted the power to tax for purposes like police and courts and schools.

You are forced to go to the state government (which has been granted taxing powers and elects it's representatives in the same fashion) and claim that a tax on your property by the county to support schools violates your right.

What right is that? Why, the right to not be taxed by a legally authorized government.

You might as well start at the top, try to get the Constitution amended to remove all power of taxation from the federal government. Convince people that a republican form of representative government is immoral because it is capable of authorizing taxation.

It will be a problem for you to try to maintain intellectual consistency in the matter, since you claim that only government can grant rights, so the right you are claiming, the right to not be taxed by government, will have to first be granted to you by the government before they will enforce the right they grant you. Cheesy

Best to just do it by example- Find some small town or county and convince them to stop taxing and fund their local government and school system from donations! Smiley
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #23 - Oct 19th, 2018 at 5:53pm
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Do I have it right? Catfood = educational opportunity for all children in your community? Cheesy
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #24 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 12:20am
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lksalksa123 wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 12:19pm:
Much of your argument follows a logical pattern but leaves out key details.  First, there would be a mass of immigration from country’s where training programs occur if we had none.  They would flood the job market with skills.


We already have this constantly pushing the actual market value of labour down because people flood in from countries where it's cheap to reproduce. And libertarians accept that whoever is better at the job should get the job (and that's the motivated immigrant every time over the lazy, worthless American).

lksalksa123 wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 12:19pm:
Also, there would most certainly be a hit to people emerging into the middle class if poor families had to pay for their children to go through k-12.


Do I get to use this argument if some libertarian policy harms me? Do I get to oppose a policy because I, or some group I favour, would take a hit?

What about the people already in the middle class who are the only sufferers under free education? These are the ones who work two jobs to pay for their college, and their taxes are paying to give the same advantages they're dropping dead for, to the poor, for free.

The poor benefit, and the business owners benefit, but the workers busting their butts are forced to pay for a flood of competition to outcompete them.

Jeff wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 3:14pm:
Red says it's an immoral denial of the rights of people to tax them to support public schools. I asked Red how he proposed to prevent (in libertarian fashion) the people in my town from taxing property to fund schools.


So I can ask you how you propose to stop me if I come up with the perfect crime, and if you can't answer, that makes my act right? Seriously?

Then can I ask you how you propose to stop the government from redistributing wealth, and if you can't tell me, it makes it right?

Jeff wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 3:28pm:
Perhaps the sort of libertarian who declares that all taxation is theft and all government is immoral would declare that local taxes used to support local schools under local control is "wrong", but they also say that having a police force and courts as a part of local government is wrong.


No, every libertarian. You think welfare is wrong but you can't think of a way to stop it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #25 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 8:19am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 12:20am:
Do I get to use this argument if some libertarian policy harms me? Do I get to oppose a policy...

At least so far in the U.S. you can oppose any policy you don't like for any reason at all. That's not so in many countries around the world...

Anyway, do you have an actual libertarian policy in mind that you think will cause, or is causing you "harm"? Can you think of one and use it as an example? Thanks.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #26 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 8:26am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 12:20am:
We already have this constantly pushing the actual market value of labour down because people flood in from countries where it's cheap to reproduce.
"Cheap to reproduce"? Are you for real?

Anyway, there isn't just one "market value of labor". Different kinds of labor have different values to different people in different markets.

If there is a lot of competition to clean outdoor swimming pools in your area, it will cost you less per cleaning than if there is only one pool guy in your area. Can you understand that? That competition and availability in local markets affects the value of particular types of labor?

The same thing happens in relation to the value of products. If there are several dozen sweet corn stands in your local area, you will almost certainly be able to buy fresh sweet corn cheaper than somewhere where there is only one farmer selling sweetcorn for 50 miles around.

Are these concepts too hard for you?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #27 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 8:34am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 12:20am:
So I can ask you how you propose to stop me if I come up with the perfect crime, and if you can't answer, that makes my act right? Seriously?

Then can I ask you how you propose to stop the government from redistributing wealth, and if you can't tell me, it makes it right?


No, every libertarian. You think welfare is wrong but you can't think of a way to stop it.
Well, it's Red that's insisting on pure libertarianism in saying that taxation is theft and government is immoral, not me.

I'm just curious if Red thinks there is some way to prevent a local community from taxing the property owners in the community to fund local schools without resorting to a serious breach of pure libertarian principles...

Would it be moral to use force to stop the members of a local community from levying taxes to fund schools? Philosophical arguments aside, this is something local communities do. They exact property taxes to fund their police and courts...

Red says that's wrong, and I'm wiling to maintain that it would be even more wrong to stop it by force.

What do you think about Reds assertion that the government gives people rights, and that they have given him a right not to be taxed, which should be upheld by a higher level of government that's supported by taxation? Cheesy


  
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Jeff
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #28 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 8:37am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 12:20am:
You think welfare is wrong but you can't think of a way to stop it.
By law. Transfers of wealth are accomplished by statute law and the laws that authorize transfers of wealth can be abolished. I think it helps that there is no Constitutional authorization for the redistribution of wealth by the federal government.
  
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Re: Why Should I Pay For Catfood...
Reply #29 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 11:49am
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dangit.  wrong thread.  sorry.
  
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