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Jeff
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #10 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 7:31pm
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While I'm thinking of it, Jefferson's war on the Barbary pirates was a good example for the world.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #11 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 4:46pm
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Rand Paul says that, despite the many repeated denials of wrongdoings, the Crown Prince WAS complicit in the killing/dismemberment of Saudi journalist, Jamal Khashoggi.

He said the US should sell no more Arms to the Saudis unless the Saudis come clean and make amends!

Chris Wallace (FOX News) asks:

"What about the President's argument that this means hundreds of thousands of American [M.I.C.] jobs?"

Paul replied, "I don't think [the sale of] Arms should ever be seen as a "jobs" program."



Good answer!!   It wiped the smirk right off of Wallace's face.
  
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BobK71
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #12 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 5:01pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 19th, 2018 at 6:43pm:
Yes - but that was over 50 years ago.    That's all in the distant past.

TODAY, there's only 2 reasons for interest in Saudi Arabia -  their oil, and their eagerness to buy US-made arms.

How the Saudis mistreat their dissidents is of no consequence to the US.  We shouldn't let political matters interfere with with oil-for-arms deals we have with Saudis.

It would be an abuse of power if Trump were to have the FBI intervene into the Khashoggi killing.

Khashoggi was Saudi - he was not a US citizen - the murder warrants no special attention from US taxpayer-funded agencies.  That would set a very dangerous precedent.

"i dont want any supper powers the usa should not be the world police." - thermf5


I believe the US-Saudi bargain has a few pieces:

- Saudis will support the dollar by selling their oil cheap and only for dollars.
- Saudis will help with US geopolitical goals (and there is always an agenda du jour, Syria, for one, Iran for another, today.)
- US will keep the house of Saud in power.

There is a huge difference between the fate of Saddam Hussein and that of the house of Saud.  The only driver of that difference that I can see is that Saddam refused to work with the US.  See, what happens if you play ball, and if you don't.  (Iraq has as much oil as Saudi Arabia.)
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #13 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 5:03pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 7:31pm:
While I'm thinking of it, Jefferson's war on the Barbary pirates was a good example for the world.


I’m surprised about that since the pirates were enslaving Americans.  I thought you said WTTE of, “enslaving Americans is kewl.”

  

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Jeff
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #14 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 6:40pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 5:03pm:
I’m surprised about that since the pirates were enslaving Americans.

Mostly they were pirating our merchant ships, stealing the ship and whatever goods were in it, and often holding the crew for ransom.

Americans weren't happy about any of it, they had an idea about free and open shipping lanes for everyone, in keeping with their basic libertarian beliefs.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #15 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 6:41pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 5:03pm:
I thought you said WTTE of, “enslaving Americans is kewl.”

You have some real problems with reading comprehension.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #16 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 7:11pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 5:01pm:
I believe the US-Saudi bargain has a few pieces:

- Saudis will support the dollar by selling their oil cheap and only for dollars.
- Saudis will help with US geopolitical goals (and there is always an agenda du jour, Syria, for one, Iran for another, today.)
- US will keep the house of Saud in power.

There is a huge difference between the fate of Saddam Hussein and that of the house of Saud.  The only driver of that difference that I can see is that Saddam refused to work with the US.  See, what happens if you play ball, and if you don't.  (Iraq has as much oil as Saudi Arabia.)
There have always been factional disputes between different sects of Muslims too.

For a long time, I think the U.S. supported anyone they thought would be helpful in containing the Soviet Union. There were plenty of dictators that didn't want the communists to take over, so we could make deals with them, not as friends, but as mutual enemies of communism. There can't be any doubt that the Soviets saw good reasons to control the Middle East, and not just for everyone's oil, they wanted direct overland access to the Mediterranean too.

At least the Saudis aren't threatening to nuke us... Are they?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #17 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 7:12pm
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BobK71 wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 5:01pm:
- US will keep the house of Saud in power.

Indeed, the US has a long history of propping up tyrant leaders of foreign countries.

Rand Paul (and most libertarians) would like to see this policy end.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #18 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 7:18pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 7:12pm:
Indeed, the US has a long history of propping up tyrant leaders of foreign countries.

Rand Paul (and most libertarians) would like to see this policy end.
I'd like to see it end too, but as I said, after WWII the U.S. was willing to help anyone who would help contain the Soviet Union. Some of them were very bad people, but they didn't want to be ruled by communists any more than anybody else did, and they weren't large expansionist empires like the Soviets, and they hadn't promised to bury the U.S. like the Soviets did.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Stark Messages from the Khashoggi Case
Reply #19 - Oct 22nd, 2018 at 8:15pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 22nd, 2018 at 7:18pm:
I'd like to see it end too, but as I said, after WWII the U.S. was willing to help anyone who would help contain the Soviet Union. Some of them were very bad people, but they didn't want to be ruled by communists any more than anybody else did, and they weren't large expansionist empires like the Soviets, and they hadn't promised to bury the U.S. like the Soviets did.


That started right after we got through helping the Soviets contain the Nazis at the cost of hundreds of thousands of American lives (and Hitler never even promised to bury us). 

That war was right after we got through helping the French contain whatever system the Germans had during WWII at the cost more than a hundred thousand American lives.

Our nuclear arms race with the Soviets damn near cost us millions of American lives, maybe all of them. 

Now, it's who again?  The Caliphaters we have to protect the world from? 

Either U.S. leaders are incredibly slow learners or else they profit enough from feeding the war machine that the fact that they are at as much risk if not more than every other American doesn't deter them.

Either way, it's not much of an argument for continuing to empower them to steal as much as they "need" to keep it up.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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