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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator (Read 805 times)
Snarky Sack
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Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Oct 20th, 2018 at 10:32am
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After a few hours, they get hungry.  One of them has a "share size" bag of peanut M&M's but he declines to share.

They take a vote and by three to two they decide to pool all consumables for the good of the community and to use force if anyone disagrees.

Perfectly legitimate taxation or outright theft? 

Is there even a difference between those things?

  

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Jeff
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #1 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 10:51am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 10:32am:
After a few hours, they get hungry.  One of them has a "share size" bag of peanut M&M's but he declines to share.

They take a vote and by three to two they decide to pool all consumables for the good of the community and to use force if anyone disagrees.

Perfectly legitimate taxation or outright theft? 

Is there even a difference between those things?

If the five people on the elevator have agreed to form some sort of polity that will be granted the power to distribute the available food equally (or do any other thing) by majority vote, then it's not theft, but it would be tyranny by the majority.

No matter, it's another of your absurdly unrealistic scenarios that are pointless in the real world of political economy.

Five strangers on an elevator, no matter what they do or don't do, can't be compared to a community of people creating a government.

But yes, legal taxation is not theft.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #2 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 10:58am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 10:51am:
If the five people on the elevator have agreed to form some sort of polity that will be granted the power to distribute the available food equally (or do any other thing) by majority vote, then it's not theft, but it would be tyranny by the majority.


So you have no moral objection to it?

You're just glad everyone gets to eat?


  

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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #3 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 11:26am
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Taking the bag of peanut M&M's from the owner is theft. 

Regardless if an individual takes it, or a mob of like-minded thugs vote to take it.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #4 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 1:28pm
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If gifted a vote, I would vote no even if I was starving, but as I keep saying, I don't care what other people do. I only care what I do.

If they take it, then they take it. I'm not about to label it as wrong.

The takers are probably libertarians, meaning they'll have another pro interpretation of the NAP ready to justify it. I would just lose if I tried to argue with them, so I won't.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #5 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:28pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 10:58am:
So you have no moral objection to it?

You're just glad everyone gets to eat?


Nobody on a stalled elevator is going to suggest voting to decide which other passenger to kill and eat.


  
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The Opposition
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #6 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:28pm:
Nobody on a stalled elevator is going to suggest voting to decide which other passenger to kill and eat.


Massive hyperbole. It was about M&Ms. And it's hypothetical anyway. "No one's going to do that" is not an excuse not to have to answer.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #7 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:34pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 2:42pm:
Massive hyperbole. It was about M&Ms. And it's hypothetical anyway. "No one's going to do that" is not an excuse not to have to answer.
It's such a transparent attempt to equate theft by 'democracy' in a very small group with legal taxation by a legally constituted government that it's just ludicrous.

People in a stalled elevator might decide to steal the M&Ms and distribute them evenly. So what? Some on this forum have said that the person who owned the M&Ms would have the right to pull out their concealed handgun and shoot the people who voted to steal their M&Ms... That's probably what actually happened!

Did you read the Chief's answer?

Not that it matters, since you are equating even a legal government with a gang of thugs.

What happened to your desire for an authoritarian government? You didn't give it up did you? You just see anarchy as a way to create opportunities for tyrants to take over, as I do.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #8 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 7:37pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:34pm:
It's such a transparent attempt to equate theft by 'democracy' in a very small group with legal taxation by a legally constituted government that it's just ludicrous.


Okay, let's make it a group of one hundred people trapped in an elevator, then. Or a thousand.

Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:34pm:
People in a stalled elevator might decide to steal the M&Ms and distribute them evenly. So what? Some on this forum have said that the person who owned the M&Ms would have the right to pull out their concealed handgun and shoot the people who voted to steal their M&Ms... That's probably what actually happened!


I actually agree with you that the original owner of the M&Ms can't do that, because that would be disproportionate force. You argue against this when it suits you, and for it when it suits you.

I'm trying to agree with you.

I can't do that, because I don't have your talent for vacillation and wishy-washery.

Jeff wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 3:34pm:
What happened to your desire for an authoritarian government? You didn't give it up did you? You just see anarchy as a way to create opportunities for tyrants to take over, as I do.


What I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times.

What I want has nothing to do with what's right. What I am going to do is follow, to the best of my ability, the dictates of freedom, like the NAP, because that is right.

I'm not trying to pick apart your positions. I'm not trying to win. I'd be stupid to think I could win an argument with you. I haven't won once.

I am trying to wring out of you, rules I can follow, and advocate, without looking as foolish as you would look without your flamethrower of ridicule. I use logic. I need rules I can follow in that vein.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #9 - Oct 20th, 2018 at 7:41pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 7:37pm:
Okay, let's make it a group of one hundred people trapped in an elevator, then. Or a thousand.


To make it realistic and believable, I think there should be at least 4,000 people in the elevator.

I'm holding out for that, and won't talk until at least 4,000 people are in the elevator...

And it has to be a mix of people that looks like America.

No fair stuffing the elevator with a bunch of rich lawyers like Obama picked for his cabinet! Angry
  
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