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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator (Read 853 times)
Snarky Sack
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #90 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 8:54am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:13am:
I vote the straight Libertarian ticket Red. I consistently support legal taxation and limited government.

Lawmakers won't even answer my questions, much less "do my bidding".

In the more that 50 years that I've paid taxes, I've never seen an IRS agent with a gun or had one come to my door. They won't. They'll garnish your salary/wages and seize you bank account without you ever seeing them.


Oh, sure.  They'll take the easy route when they can.  But all of that garnishing and bank account seizing is made possible by the feds use of guns as a last resort to collect taxes.  That started under George Washington, not FDR.

  

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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #91 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 9:44am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 28th, 2018 at 8:54am:
Oh, sure.  They'll take the easy route when they can.  But all of that garnishing and bank account seizing is made possible by the feds use of guns as a last resort to collect taxes.  That started under George Washington, not FDR.

The Whiskey Rebellion was a rebellion, and it was based on more than just the excise on whiskey.

Edit: Here's part of what was going on (from history.com)-

"Perhaps inevitably, violence broke out. On September 11, 1791, excise officer Robert Johnson was riding through his collection route in western Pennsylvania.

Johnson was surrounded by 11 men dressed as women, who stripped him naked and then tarred and feathered him before stealing his horse and abandoning him in the forest.

Johnson recognized two men in the mob. He made a complaint and warrants were issued for their arrest.

A cattle drover named John Connor was sent with the warrants, and he suffered the same fate as Johnson, and was tied to a tree in the woods for five hours before being found. In response, Johnson resigned his post, fearing further violence.

Incidents escalated over the next few years. In 1793, the home of Pennsylvania excise officer Benjamin Wells was broken into twice. The first time, a mob of people forced their way in and assaulted Wells’ wife and children.

The second incident involved six men, in disguises, while Wells was home. The intruders demanded Wells’ account books at gunpoint and insisted he resign his position."

Obviously it was more than just someone refusing to pay taxes and having President Washington send men with guns.
  
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #92 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 4:24pm
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Has there been any follow-up story? Did any of the five get out alive? Is there a YouTube video?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #93 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 4:44pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 20th, 2018 at 10:32am:
They take a vote...
This is where the problems start... Red is the one who has the M&Ms, and he doesn't consent to you governing him by your "voting". Angry

Who authorized you to vote about Red's M&Ms anyway? Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry

Did anybody know that Red was carrying and was an expert with his carry pistol when they decided to take his M&Ms? Shocked

Seriously, I keep trying to offer you good opportunities to discuss political economy and theories of good legitimate government.

But you won't do it.

I hope they take your pistol and your M&MS. Smiley

Edit: Just to be clear, we are talking about the same "they".
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #94 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:10pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:15am:
Yet you constantly harass me because I'm getting back some of what I paid into Social Security, and you keep claiming the moral high ground, when in fact you can't.


You're on a monthly welfare direct deposit that you will get if you live to be one hundred and ten years old because you paid into the system for forty quarters, which is ten years. 

You're not getting anything "back."  The money you paid into the system was spent almost the moment it was collected.  Your SS welfare comes from SS being collected from your children and grandchildren and soon even that system will be insolvent. 

The only solution is to sharply reduce benefits starting now and zero them out before the Ponzi scheme finally collapses.  People like you are the reason politicians who are fully aware of that fact are allowing the system to collapse.  They know you will take to the internet, the airwaves and even the streets if they reduce your loot by a penny.

I admit I'm living off stolen money.  Specifically, I look for schools and districts who have money at the end of a fiscal year that they "have to spend, or we won't get as much next year."  In the Army, I saw that this is the most common motivation for wasteful spending. 

I know that if I don't get that money, someone else will, and I try to provide real help which is often sorely needed.  In that way, the world is better off with me doing this.  But I don't kid myself that I'm not living on money obtained through aggression.  You do.

  

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The Opposition
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #95 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:16pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:10pm:
But I don't kid myself that I'm not living on money obtained through aggression.


We all are. No matter how far from the initial blast we are, we're all sucking up the fallout of redistribution.

I could logically prove this just by stating that since all money is printed by the Federal Reserve, you must, at least indirectly, serve the Federal Reserve to have ever gotten any money. If your hands were completely clean, you might have a bunch of trade goods, but no dollars.

Even just the fact that I must live somewhere and pay taxes on it means I must serve the government.

This is a good starting point to understand that when a big factor like government is into the economy, it touches everything, albeit sometimes indirectly. You know you've gotten some, so if I shine your shoes, I'm guilty too. And the guy who takes that shoeshine money and sells me a kebab as well.

No one is innocent. I hope the fact that it's logically impossible to be innocent consoles you somewhat. It's something I feel bad for as well and I try to stay as far away from the blast as possible.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #96 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:16pm:
We all are.
No. most people still work for what they earn. No aggression is involved if you work for what you earn.

Aggression is involved when you are given (or take) money you didn't work for.

The difference is clear.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #97 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 28th, 2018 at 4:44pm:
This is where the problems start... Red is the one who has the M&Ms, and he doesn't consent to you governing him by your "voting". Angry

Who authorized you to vote about Red's M&Ms anyway? Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry

Did anybody know that Red was carrying and was an expert with his carry pistol when they decided to take his M&Ms? Shocked

Seriously, I keep trying to offer you good opportunities to discuss political economy and theories of good legitimate government.

But you won't do it.

I hope they take your pistol and your M&MS. Smiley

Edit: Just to be clear, we are talking about the same "they".


I get you now, like I said.  It's moral to take things from other people as long as the taking is approved by elected representatives.  You've never talked about direct voting for the taking, so I won't mention that.

So in my elevator scenario, the voters in the elevator simply elect three representatives who vote on the disposition of the M&M's.  Then an immoral act - taking another's property - becomes a moral one - taxing for a legitimate government function, be it educating children or feeding the hungry.

I guess a system like that would give the M&M's rightful owner temporary possessor, time to offer a smaller amount of M&M's to the representatives before they take them all. 

That's how representative governments have operated every single time they have been tried, but maybe you mean some hypothetical representative government which would never accept bribes?
  

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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #98 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:23pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:10pm:
I admit I'm living off stolen money. 
Yet you claim the moral high ground.
  
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Re: Five People are Stranded on a Stalled Elevator
Reply #99 - Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:26pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:22pm:
I get you now, like I said.  It's moral to take things from other people as long as the taking is approved by elected representatives.  You've never talked about direct voting for the taking, so I won't mention that.

So in my elevator scenario, the voters in the elevator simply elect three representatives who vote on the disposition of the M&M's.  Then an immoral act - taking another's property - becomes a moral one - taxing for a legitimate government function, be it educating children or feeding the hungry.

I guess a system like that would give the M&M's rightful owner temporary possessor, time to offer a smaller amount of M&M's to the representatives before they take them all. 

That's how representative governments have operated every single time they have been tried, but maybe you mean some hypothetical representative government which would never accept bribes?
It's a matter of consent, which I know is a critical point with you.

You didn't consent to abide by a democratic vote that might redistribute your property, your M&Ms..

Neither have I.
  
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