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Poll closed Question: What Group of People is Stupider?
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Lawmakers    
  1 (20.0%)
Voters    
  4 (80.0%)




Total votes: 5
« Created by: Jeff on: Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:57am »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid (Read 619 times)
Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #50 - Oct 30th, 2018 at 3:10pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 11:15am:
I drew a cartoon a while back to represent my feelings about a representative republic when compared to a true democracy.

I think a representative republic has all the problems of a true democracy, plus some new ones. If you want to make the point that a pure democracy is terrible, compare it to something besides a representative republic.

A carefully designed representative republic such as the one created by the U.S. Constitution, if the people are vigilant in holding elected representatives and officials to the law, is a great system.

We know where and when ours went wrong, and we can improve it.

There is no way to correct the fundamental flaw of a pure democracy.
  
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Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #51 - Oct 30th, 2018 at 3:11pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 11:35am:
I want people who are governed to be able to vote for their government.
That's pretty vague.

Edit: Maybe it's not that vague... In light of what you've been saying, you want pure democracy, everyone votes on every issue, and you want it with the caveat that if even one person votes no, whatever it was that was being voted on fails.

In your ideal system, each individual has veto power over anything and everything the rest of the people might want to do...

Is that right?
« Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2018 at 5:14pm by Jeff »  
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SkyChief
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #52 - Oct 30th, 2018 at 5:22pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 3:05pm:
If you want police and courts and a jail, and you create a government to provide them, you have to provide the means for the government to achieve the end you want, which is a safe civilized community. The most practical way of doing that is to grant the government a limited power to tax.

What recourse do the People have when government ignores the limitations and decides to redistribute the funds derived from taxation (which is what is happening now)?
  
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Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #53 - Oct 30th, 2018 at 5:35pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 5:22pm:
What recourse do the People have when government ignores the limitations and decides to redistribute the funds derived from taxation (which is what is happening now)?
Do the things that libertarians are doing all over the world, that's my best advice. Don't blame me if it doesn't work.

If you think Reds plan is better, try to figure out ways to make it come about.

Speaking historically, what resource did English Citizens in the American colonies have when Parliament taxed them without first giving them representation?

My basic premise is that free people can decide how, if at all, they want to be governed. There are a wide range of options. I think mine is best. Roll Eyes

People disagree.

Some people want to decide it by shooting it out or rioting in the streets and burning cities...

They should stay out of my neighborhood.

I'm too old for armed revolution, and even if I was young, I wouldn't follow Red or Patrick Henry.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #54 - Oct 30th, 2018 at 6:51pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
Do the things that libertarians are doing all over the world, that's my best advice. Don't blame me if it doesn't work.
You mean to push for an end to all taxation?  That seems to be the general consensus with most (prominent) libertarians.

Jeff wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
If you think Reds plan is better, try to figure out ways to make it come about.
Red's plan is to end ALL taxation, right? 

That might be too radical.   Abolishing Income Tax would be good step to limit government spending, though.

Jeff wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
Speaking historically, what resource did English Citizens in the American colonies have when Parliament taxed them without first giving them representation?
They decided to declare independence from England.   King George III was quite upset about the whole affair.  He proclaimed the rebellious colonists to be traitors. So in May, 1785, John Adams met with the King and tried to smooth things over.   The meeting was quite awkward, to say the least!   Shocked   Grin

Jeff wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 5:35pm:
My basic premise is that free people can decide how, if at all, they want to be governed. There are a wide range of options. I think mine is best. Roll Eyes

People disagree.

Some people want to decide it by shooting it out or rioting in the streets and burning cities...

They should stay out of my neighborhood.

I'm too old for armed revolution, and even if I was young, I wouldn't follow Red or Patrick Henry.
Armed Revolutions are a last resort.  That's why many of the colonists were against it.  They knew bodies would hit the floor.    That's part of the price of any revolution.

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.” - Thomas Jefferson
  
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Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #55 - Oct 30th, 2018 at 7:11pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 6:51pm:
You mean to push for an end to all taxation?  That seems to be the general consensus with most (prominent) libertarians.

Red's plan is to end ALL taxation, right? 

That might be too radical.
Whichever you decide on, that's what you should do.

What do you mean by "(prominent) libertarians"? Anarchists with hard-ons? Cheesy Cheesy Grin
  
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Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #56 - Oct 30th, 2018 at 7:17pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 6:51pm:
So in May, 1785, John Adams met with the King and tried to smooth things over.
Really?

No matter, declaring independence, rebelling against the authority of the British government wasn't the only choice...
Anyway, what did Adams tell the King after the colonies had declared themselves to be free of his rule? How could he have smoothed that over?

Adams should have talked to Parliament instead of the King...
  
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Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #57 - Oct 30th, 2018 at 7:21pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 6:51pm:
Armed Revolutions are a last resort.
Anarchists seem to think they are the only possible solution, because no government can be legitimate and all taxaton is theft.

Make your own choice.

Probably I should let you know that most libertarians aren't anarchists and don't favor eliminating all taxes.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #58 - Oct 30th, 2018 at 8:15pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 3:11pm:
That's pretty vague.

Edit: Maybe it's not that vague... In light of what you've been saying, you want pure democracy, everyone votes on every issue, and you want it with the caveat that if even one person votes no, whatever it was that was being voted on fails.

In your ideal system, each individual has veto power over anything and everything the rest of the people might want to do...

Is that right?


Not at all.

If in a small town of say fifteen hundred families, they decide to pool their money and start a school that charges no tuition to the town's children and all who might move into the town as soon as they find out about the generosity, I wouldn't lift a finger to stop them.

But if I'm in a minority of say one hundred families (or one family) that prefers to send their children to a pay school, I certainly don't want the other fourteen hundred (or fourteen hundred ninety-nine) to think that their numbers give them the right to take my money and give it back to me but this time as a "voucher" to be used at public school.

That's just wasteful.


  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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The Opposition
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #59 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:33am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 8:15pm:
But if I'm in a minority of say one hundred families (or one family) that prefers to send their children to a pay school, I certainly don't want the other fourteen hundred (or fourteen hundred ninety-nine) to think that their numbers give them the right to take my money and give it back to me but this time as a "voucher"to be used at public school.

That's just wasteful.


I've been thinking a lot about Jeff's usual retort to this, which, by way of "How are you going to stop them?" is essentially, "Well, because they can."

I've been wondering if it's possible for a right to go back to being undiscovered, once it is discovered.

For example, when you Humans were a bunch of ape-men stomping each others' skulls in, there wasn't really any wrong in it, except the poor fool on the ground not particularly liking that his skull was getting stomped in.

Some time ago, that act had to have become wrong. I don't know whether most people agreeing to it actually caused it or just coincided with it.

But perhaps, in the same way a thing becomes wrong, it can become un-wrong again.

I think most people used to agree that ganging up and pillaging the minority in one way or another, just because you can, was wrong. Nowadays that realisation seems to have been lost.

One thing that stands out, though, is that if it's not wrong to use numbers to get your way, at the expense of others, then the Holocaust wasn't wrong either. Children have died violent deaths at public school, so there definitely is at least some death involved, just on a smaller scale.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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