Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Poll
Poll closed Question: What Group of People is Stupider?
bars   pie
*** This poll has now closed ***


Lawmakers    
  1 (20.0%)
Voters    
  4 (80.0%)




Total votes: 5
« Created by: Jeff on: Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:57am »
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid (Read 618 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35456
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #60 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 7:31am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 8:15pm:
Not at all.

If in a small town of say fifteen hundred families, they decide to pool their money and start a school that charges no tuition to the town's children and all who might move into the town as soon as they find out about the generosity, I wouldn't lift a finger to stop them.

But if I'm in a minority of say one hundred families (or one family) that prefers to send their children to a pay school, I certainly don't want the other fourteen hundred (or fourteen hundred ninety-nine) to think that their numbers give them the right to take my money and give it back to me but this time as a "voucher" to be used at public school.




Under my voucher plan, you get back all the money that would have been spent on your child in the public school, and you can use it to send your child to any school you want, or even to fund your home school.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35456
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #61 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 7:36am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:33am:
I've been wondering if it's possible for a right to go back to being undiscovered, once it is discovered.

And your conclusion is that such an absurdity is possible?

It's sounds like you've figured out that if, due to some catastrophic event, humans are thrown back on the evolutionary ladder to a state where they are no longer human, that natural human rights will once again be undiscovered. (Even then, pre-human animals will fight to protect their property rights and their right to not be killed...)




  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35456
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #62 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 7:44am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:33am:
I think most people used to agree that ganging up and pillaging the minority in one way or another, just because you can, was wrong.

Speaking of "used to", most people used to be resigned to living under tyrannical minorities called Royal Governments and such.

Communists decided that this was wrong, and so did classical liberals.

The communist solution was to have a minority called The Party gang up and plunder anyone and everyone that had any sort of wealth at all and set themselves up as the new Rulers. Cheesy

The classical liberal solution was to create strictly limited governments that were subject to the people and whose only legitimate function was to impartially serve the people at large.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4157
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #63 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 7:58am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 3:05pm:
People have the right to form governments and grant powers to those governments. If you want police and courts and a jail, and you create a government to provide them, you have to provide the means for the government to achieve the end you want, which is a safe civilized community. The most practical way of doing that is to grant the government a limited power to tax.

I'm not concerned much whether the right of people to create governments is a natural right,


Because you know that of course it is not a natural right.  But, you don't want to say so, because that government created without the natural right of the people to create it, will immediately begin infringing on rights that are natural. 

You're also "not concerned" about whether that right to create a government is absolute even though you don't address that and for the same reason.


Quote:
but I can't see who, other then the people themselves, could put any limit on it...
So if a people create a government and do not put any limit on it, that government is rightfully unlimited?

Quote:
How could you stop people from creating governments? Tyrannize them? I suppose so. Young Kim is not about to let his subjects form a government.


I don't wish to stop people from creating governments.  Unlike you, I believe the right to create a government is both natural and absolute.  If I have a natural and absolute right to defend myself, I have a natural and absolute right to form a government to defend me and/or help me defend myself.  If I have a natural and absolute right to own property, I have a natural and absolute right to form a government to help me keep it.  If I have a natural and absolute right to force my neighbor to put money in a fund with which to educate my children then I have a natural and absolute right to form a government which will force my neighbor to put money in a fund with which to educate my children. 

If.

Surely even you can see which of the above rights is and is not natural and absolute? 

You're "pretty much everyone thinks it's a good idea" standard cannot trump natural and absolute rights. 

You're "how ya gonna stop people from taxing" argument is absurd for reasons that have been explained to you by smarter posters than I.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35456
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #64 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 9:20am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 7:58am:
Because you know that of course it is not a natural right.  But, you don't want to say so, because that government created without the natural right of the people to create it, will immediately begin infringing on rights that are natural. 

You're also "not concerned" about whether that right to create a government is absolute even though you don't address that and for the same reason.




I'm not much concerned because the alternatives, tyrannical governments or anarchy, are so much worse.

The only way I can think of to stop free people from forming governments is to have tyrannical governments stand in their way, and the only way I can see to prevent tyrannical governments from taking control is to have limited governments with the consent of the people stand in the way of tyrants.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35456
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #65 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 9:22am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 7:58am:
So if a people create a government and do not put any limit on it, that government is rightfully unlimited?



Only if it has the Mandate of Heaven to trample on the rights of individuals.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35456
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #66 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 9:38am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 7:58am:
I don't wish to stop people from creating governments.  Unlike you, I believe the right to create a government is both natural and absolute.  If I have a natural and absolute right to defend myself, I have a natural and absolute right to form a government to defend me and/or help me defend myself.  If I have a natural and absolute right to own property, I have a natural and absolute right to form a government to help me keep it.  If I have a natural and absolute right to force my neighbor to put money in a fund with which to educate my children then I have a natural and absolute right to form a government which will force my neighbor to put money in a fund with which to educate my children. 


I don't believe that rights are absolute.

I do believe that the governments you agree people have a right to create can have only the powers granted to them by the people, and I can't imagine people granting a government absolute power.

If as you maintain, taxation is theft and not to be allowed, then the governments you agree people have a right to create are powerless and useless and will not accomplish the purposes for which they are created.

What you see as the immoral theft of money to be used to fund schools that will  offer to educate all of a communities children, I see as something made moral by it's purpose and use.

We disagree, and I understand you believe that all of the proper functions of government can be accomplished without taxation, and that providing public education is not a proper function of government.

I disagree with the proposition that the functions of government can be funded by donations or fees.  Show me where donations have ever been used to do that. Convince me that government as a private business is anything more than a private business, run for the profit of it's owners by providing services for those customers that are able to pay.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4157
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #67 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 11:40am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 9:38am:
I don't believe that rights are absolute.

I do believe that the governments you agree people have a right to create can have only the powers granted to them by the people, and I can't imagine people granting a government absolute power.

If as you maintain, taxation is theft and not to be allowed, then the governments you agree people have a right to create are powerless and useless and will not accomplish the purposes for which they are created.



Governments can and do raise money through tolls, through lotteries, through fees for services such as registration of deeds, payments of court costs by litigants, and yes, voluntary donations.

So you know that your premise that government cannot exist without taxes so no taxes = no government is false.

Quote:
What you see as the immoral theft of money to be used to fund schools that will  offer to educate all of a communities children, I see as something made moral by it's purpose and use.


So do people who advocate for midnite basketball using tax money.  Why is your morality better than theirs?

Quote:
We disagree, and I understand you believe that all of the proper functions of government can be accomplished without taxation, and that providing public education is not a proper function of government.

I disagree with the proposition that the functions of government can be funded by donations or fees.  Show me where donations have ever been used to do that. Convince me that government as a private business is anything more than a private business, run for the profit of it's owners by providing services for those customers that are able to pay.


You have the procedure exactly backward because you are still thinking like a statist.  Your idea is that people should:

1 - decide they want/need a government.
2 - decide what they want that government to do for it.
3 - elect government officials and swear them into the powers granted to government.
4 - stand by as they raise money for the purposes for which they are empowered by whatever means necessary.

That is a formula for growth of government in power and scope that has worked for centuries to make sure that people become less and less free and more and more dependent on government.

The correct procedure for those who understand that an action that would be immoral when done by an individual does not become moral when done by a government is:

1 - Discuss what, if any, government services are needed/wanted.
2 - brainstorm ways to pay for those services.
3 - if it appears that people would be willing to pay for those services, either to benefit themselves or to benefit "the community," appoint officials to manage to process of collecting the revenue and providing the services.
4 - if it appears that people would not be willing to pay for those proposed services, table the proposal. 

The beauty of that is that government then cannot grow larger than its supporters wish it to.

If people say they "need" government services but are unwilling to pay for it, they remind me of people who say they want kids but don't want to change diapers.  They don't really want kids, they want something like a kid.

I guess you could say, "Well, but everyone needs kids, so let's tax "everyone" to hire nannies to change the diapers of kids whose parents don't want to do that."  Makes at least as much sense as you idea that everyone be taxed to hire teacher to teach kids of parents who wouldn't be bothered.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35456
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #68 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 2:39pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 11:40am:
Governments can and do raise money through tolls, through lotteries, through fees for services such as registration of deeds, payments of court costs by litigants, and yes, voluntary donations.

So you know that your premise that government cannot exist without taxes so no taxes = no government is false.



Tolls and fees for services don't raise money, they simply pay the costs of operations and maintenance. Lotteries are the worst way I can think of for governments to raise money.

Voluntary donations? How much federal revenue is raised by donations?

Show me a government that has ever existed through voluntary donations and I will grant that you are correct.

If everybody hates taxes as much as you say, and believes they are theft, it should be easy for you to talk some small town into giving the donation route a try.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35456
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #69 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 2:45pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 11:40am:
So do people who advocate for midnite basketball using tax money.  Why is your morality better than theirs?



If the people of your community decide to tax themselves to provide basketball courts or playgrounds or tennis courts or municipal swimming pools, they will (and they do), and I think the justification is the same as for schools, it provides recreational opportunities for all the children of the community.

The "midnight basketball" programs you refer to are a different matter. They came into being because the federal government decided that everyone in the country should help pay for recreation programs for certain specific communities.

If the people of the community have a voice in the taxation and the spending, and they spend so as to at least plausibly benefit their entire community, I think it's fine.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy