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Poll closed Question: What Group of People is Stupider?
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Lawmakers    
  1 (20.0%)
Voters    
  4 (80.0%)




Total votes: 5
« Created by: Jeff on: Oct 28th, 2018 at 7:57am »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid (Read 652 times)
Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #70 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 2:48pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 11:40am:
You have the procedure exactly backward because you are still thinking like a statist.
I'm thinking I want to maximize liberty for the maximum number of people that is practically possible. I'm thinking like a classical liberal rather than a pie in the sky anarchist.

Free people in free communities will have their legitimate governments do things that aren't always in accord with pure ideologies of liberty.

I understand that you don't like that.
  
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Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #71 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 2:52pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 11:40am:
The correct procedure for those who understand that an action that would be immoral when done by an individual does not become moral when done by a government is:

1 - Discuss what, if any, government services are needed/wanted.
2 - brainstorm ways to pay for those services.
3 - if it appears that people would be willing to pay for those services, either to benefit themselves or to benefit "the community," appoint officials to manage to process of collecting the revenue and providing the services.
4 - if it appears that people would not be willing to pay for those proposed services, table the proposal. 

The beauty of that is that government then cannot grow larger than its supporters wish it to.


That's a pretty good description of how local communities decide to raise taxes to fund schools (and do other things too). Where I live, we get to vote on property tax increases and also on bond issues if the local government wants to borrow money.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #72 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:51pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 2:52pm:
That's a pretty good description of how local communities decide to raise taxes to fund schools (and do other things too). Where I live, we get to vote on property tax increases and also on bond issues if the local government wants to borrow money.


But that's not voting to pay for government services.  That's voting to use force to make other people pay for government services.  That force must be backed up by the state and ultimately the federal government, so it's another power grab by the central government.

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #73 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:58pm
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Voters Take Three to One Lead Over Lawmakers!

The latest news from Venezuela follows...
  
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Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #74 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 6:56pm
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I'm puzzled that a poll posted on a libertarian forum would choose lawmakers over voters by a three to one margin... Does that mean libertarians want really smart lawmakers to run things?

No, sorry, probably not. It probably just means that libertarians know how dangerous democracy is...

But really, most of the people I know, and have ever known, are smarter than most lawmakers. Smiley Not nearly as devious and clever, but smarter.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #75 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 9:24pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 7:36am:
And your conclusion is that such an absurdity is possible?

It's sounds like you've figured out that if, due to some catastrophic event, humans are thrown back on the evolutionary ladder to a state where they are no longer human, that natural human rights will once again be undiscovered. (Even then, pre-human animals will fight to protect their property rights and their right to not be killed...)


I don't have a conclusion. I don't know whether once wrongness is discovered, it's wrong forever, or whether any situation or combination of factors can return that act to a state of un-wrongness again.

You've got the nasty little smileys ready to ridicule me if I make any conclusion, so why don't you make one? You've already declared it absurd that once wrong, an act can go back to being un-wrong.

Does that mean once someone discovers an act is wrong, it's wrong forever? How many people does it apply to? All? Some? My species too, or just Earth?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: One Important Problem with Democracy: Voters are Stupid
Reply #76 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 7:37am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 9:24pm:
Does that mean once someone discovers an act is wrong, it's wrong forever? How many people does it apply to? All? Some? My species too, or just Earth?
Discovered natural rights, if there is any validity at all to the idea that humans possess inherent inalienable rights, are immutable, forever, they will always apply to all humans.

What species are you anyway? Dragon? Vulcan?

Have you made claims to be some other sort of non-human that I've missed?

Whatever, human rights apply to humans.

I have no idea what might apply to your species, but my guess is that humans will claim that you have a right to be treated at least as humanely as humans mostly agree that animals should be treated.

Edit: Can you at least conclude that natural rights to property and self defense exist, even among animals?
  
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