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Josh
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3000 Days
Oct 25th, 2018 at 7:12pm
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I just happened to log on today and it's been exactly 3,000 days since I've joined this forum. I don't post very often nowadays but I can say it's been a journey. Talking with other libertarians really challenged my beliefs more than ever before and forced me to change my position on a lot of different topics. When I came onto this forum, I was a pro-choice small government Libertarian. Now I'm a pro-life anarcho-capitalist libertarian.

What's your experience been since joining this forum? Have your beliefs been challenged? Have you strengthened your debating skills or critically thinking abilities?
  

I like big butts and I cannot lie.
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Jeff
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Re: 3000 Days
Reply #1 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 7:15pm
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Josh wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 7:12pm:
I just happened to log on today and it's been exactly 3,000 days since I've joined this forum. I don't post very often nowadays but I can say it's been a journey. Talking with other libertarians really challenged my beliefs more than ever before and forced me to change my position on a lot of different topics. When I came onto this forum, I was a pro-choice small government Libertarian. Now I'm a pro-life anarcho-capitalist libertarian.

I'm sorry to hear that Josh, the part about how you've become an anarchist...

What persuaded you that anarchy will be better than a limited government?
  
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Josh
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Re: 3000 Days
Reply #2 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 7:28pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 7:15pm:
I'm sorry to hear that Josh, the part about how you've become an anarchist...

What persuaded you that anarchy will be better than a limited government?

Consistent application of libertarian ethic and economic principles.
  

I like big butts and I cannot lie.
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The Opposition
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Re: 3000 Days
Reply #3 - Oct 25th, 2018 at 8:35pm
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Josh wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 7:12pm:
What's your experience been since joining this forum? Have your beliefs been challenged? Have you strengthened your debating skills or critically thinking abilities?


Most people on this forum agree that I should not be allowed to own a chicken, so I've come to understand a lot about what libertarianism is and isn't.

What really saddens me is that libertarians themselves constantly resort to heckling and insults because they seem to think their beliefs would never be supported if they didn't stay on the offensive with the constant ridicule of other opinions.

A recent example was the response to a global warming thread. No one was willing to discuss the issue even hypothetically (and there's a general unwillingness to consider hypotheticals with libertarians) because they think their beliefs are wrong. They don't want to debate without the impenetrable shield and unbeatable sword of ridicule.

It saddens me because I believe libertarian beliefs are right. I don't think there's a need to insult and stay on the constant offensive, or shout down everything with ridicule. I think libertarianism wins on a fair playing field, precisely because it is right.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: 3000 Days
Reply #4 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 8:59am
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Josh wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 7:28pm:
Consistent application of libertarian ethic and economic principles.
That doesn't really address my question- My fault, I'll try to make my question better-

Why do you think anarchy will be better than limited government?
  
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Jeff
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Re: 3000 Days
Reply #5 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 9:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
Most people on this forum agree that I should not be allowed to own a chicken...
Please buy a chicken!

Who says you can't own a chicken?
  
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Jeff
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Re: 3000 Days
Reply #6 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 9:03am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 8:35pm:
A recent example was the response to a global warming thread.
The thread that proposed more cows as a solution to global warming? I didn't know it was a serious proposition...
  
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The Opposition
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Re: 3000 Days
Reply #7 - Oct 26th, 2018 at 11:30pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 9:01am:
Please buy a chicken!

Who says you can't own a chicken?


You say I can't own a chicken in a residential neighbourhood. Skychief agrees. Anyone would agree, because it is a health hazard. The only troubling thing is how you'll tell me, over and over, that the NAP and aggression in libertarian terms mean I can't have a chicken, but you change your tune when Josh is involved.

Why should you? You're right.

You can explain to Josh why you're right, can't you?

Jeff wrote on Jul 4th, 2014 at 8:37am:
I raise chickens. If you want to buy one, I'll sell it to you. If you steal one, I'll file a complaint and have you arrested.
I don't raise my chickens in a residential neighborhood. If I did, they would constitute a nuisance and possibly a health hazard, and my neighbors would file complaints against me.


RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
Opp, yes it does matter what a gun or a dog or a tiger is good for.  There's a reason tigers are outlawed as pets, while dogs are not.  And there's a reason we're allowed to own guns.  The benefit of owning a tiger isn't worth the risk.  There is no benefit to owning a tiger like there is to owning a dog or gun.


SkyChief wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 1:26pm:
The reason(s) for owning a gun is quite different than the reason to own a tiger or a chicken.   I'm saddened to be labeled a rabid, selfish, maniac.

There is only one absolute right that each and every person on the planet has:   self-defense.    All living things have a right to self-defense.  Tigers have it - even chickens have it.  (If you've ever witnessed a cockfight, you have seen self-defense of chickens)

If government were to ban guns, it would take away our means of self-defense, and that would be immoral.   If government were to ban (ownership of) tigers, no rights were violated - it is not immoral.

Libertarianism is based on self-ownership of the individual. It means a person's wealth and property belongs to him/her  -  not the government.

You accept some degree of risk getting out of bed.  A little more risk once you leave the house. Risk goes up considerably when you drive your car.   Life is full of risks.  Don't worry if I'm carrying my gun.  If you don't physically attack me, I promise not to shoot (at) you.   Scout's honor.


SkyChief wrote on Oct 7th, 2018 at 5:18pm:
I sense a lot of frustration here.

My gun poses no threat to you or any of my neighbors.

It is locked, and its ammunition is stored in a separate, secure location.

Your chicken is a potential risk to the neighbors.  Someone's pet fox might want to eat it.  Chickens are notorious for being host to Salmonella bacteria, avian influenza virus (AI), Fowl Pox,  Necrotic Enteritis, et al....       Yuck!! 

Guns = SAFE   Smiley  Smiley

Chickens =  DEATH & DISEASES  Sad  Smiley
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: 3000 Days
Reply #8 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 12:38am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 26th, 2018 at 11:30pm:
You say I can't own a chicken in a residential neighbourhood. Skychief agrees. Anyone would agree, because it is a health hazard.



Oppo, I was being facetious. 

Have your chicken(s).    I don't care.

But keep them in a coop.   I don't want to be awakened by their clucking and crowing at 5:20 AM.

I like to sleep in 'til around  8:00 AM or so.

Thanks!     Smiley
  
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The Opposition
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Re: 3000 Days
Reply #9 - Oct 27th, 2018 at 4:00am
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 27th, 2018 at 12:38am:
Oppo, I was being facetious. 


Why does it matter? It's a winning argument. Someone else could simply make it seriously. Jeff and Ruby have done so.

You can't present a knockdown refutal and then say, "I was kidding" because the refutal still stands.

I think the fact that it's so easy to use libertarian principles to allow or disallow just about anything makes the case for clearer principles.

Whether or not risking others is aggression is particularly vague and has a lot of caveats that wouldn't be obvious to anyone. No one would say pointing a revolver loaded with five bullets at someone's head and pulling the trigger was just fine if a bullet didn't come out, and you're absolutely right that animal ownership presents a risk to others. But at what point does risk become aggression? How much risk, exactly? I don't think anyone knows the answer to that.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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