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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Aggression (Read 407 times)
Jeff
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Re: Aggression
Reply #30 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 7:06am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 30th, 2018 at 9:07pm:
It clearly was granted that power.
Your bare assertion is not convincing. Do you have a reasoned argument for your position?
  
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BobK71
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Re: Aggression
Reply #31 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 10:23am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 29th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
I challenge you and anyone else to make one. Or two, if you feel the need.


Last time we were in this phase of the imperial-bubble cycle, i.e. the few decades before World War I, discussions about alternative systemic designs were also blossoming, e.g. everything from anarchism to communism.

This was totally understandable since, first of all, the reigning basic narrative ('free markets' and 'democracy' under British or American 'leadership') is deeply felt, if not totally exposed, to be a fraud.  The alternative systems had/have the appeal of a clean sweep in favor of something simple and honest.

But do not be fooled.  There's a reason our system evolved over the millennia and is still evolving, apart from fraud by the elites.  This is an inherently difficult thing.  Radical solutions can easily make things worse and end up strengthening the imperial system, when all's said and done, as communism did.

The proper solution is piece-wise reform.  If the manipulation of the money system is the chief culprit of today's (and the last few centuries') ills, let us focus on that.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Aggression
Reply #32 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 29th, 2018 at 5:25pm:
The government is granted certain powers to do things that are aggression if anyone else does them. There are good reasons for the grant of such powers by the U.S. Constitution.

I guess what I'm saying is that the list for the government has already been made, and it doesn't include the power to pick and choose among people who might want to make their living selling fruit


Nor does it include robbing some families to pay for the education of other families' children.


Question for Jeff:  You make a distinction between "rights" which are held by an individual and "powers" which are held by a government.  You object to phrases like, "Governments have the right to . . . ."

So help me understand the difference.  If a government claims the "power to tax" how is that different from it claiming the "right to tax?" 

If the government's "power to tax" was granted to it by the people, where did the people get the "right" to grant the government the power to tax?

Prioritize answering that exact question in bold.  Nothing else you say really matters until you do, please and thank you.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Aggression
Reply #33 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 2:56pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:16pm:
Nor does it include robbing some families to pay for the education of other families' children.



Of course not. The federal government has no grant of power to do anything at all related to education other than to require that state and local governments that do provide education do so without discrimination.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Aggression
Reply #34 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:00pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:16pm:
Question for Jeff:  You make a distinction between "rights" which are held by an individual and "powers" which are held by a government.  You object to phrases like, "Governments have the right to . . . ."

So help me understand the difference.  If a government claims the "power to tax" how is that different from it claiming the "right to tax?" 


A government that claims powers is tyrannical.

A government that is granted powers should exercise those powers within the limits and for the purposes provided by the people that created the government.

What good is a right to create a government if you can't invest that government with powers to serve the people who created it?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Aggression
Reply #35 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:19pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:00pm:
A government that claims powers is tyrannical.

A government that is granted powers should exercise those powers within the limits and for the purposes provided by the people that created the government.

What good is a right to create a government if you can't invest that government with powers to serve the people who created it?


I have to repeat myself, here Jeff.  I'm afraid it's one of my autism features:

If the government's "power to tax" was granted to it by the people, where did the people get the "right" to grant the government the power to tax?

Prioritize answering that exact question in bold.  Nothing else you say really matters until you do, please and thank you.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Aggression
Reply #36 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:32pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:19pm:
I have to repeat myself, here Jeff.  I'm afraid it's one of my autism features:

If the government's "power to tax" was granted to it by the people, where did the people get the "right" to grant the government the power to tax?

Prioritize answering that exact question in bold.  Nothing else you say really matters until you do, please and thank you.
You admitted that people have a right to form governments, now you say the same people who had a right to create a government don't have a right to grant it powers of taxation...

I can't understand why you agree that the first right exists, but not the second.

I strongly suspect that people create governments for reasons, because they have a purpose in mind, because they expect the government they create to do something for them.

That's what the first Americans had in mind with the Articles of Confederation... In their revolutionary idealism, caring deeply about liberty as they did, they thought giving the government they created the power to tax would betray the Revolution, so they didn't, and they soon discovered that they had created a useless government.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Aggression
Reply #37 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:40pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:32pm:
You admitted that people have a right to form governments, now you say the same people who had a right to create a government don't have a right to grant it powers of taxation...

I can't understand why you agree that the first right exists, but not the second.


Because I can explain where the right(s) to perform government functions that the people grant to government come from.  For example, the right to police powers to stop violent crime comes from people's natural right to defend themselves.  The right to empower government to put out fires comes from the right of people to protect their property from natural hazards.  The right of the people to empower government to build roads comes from the right of the people to build roads.

Can you make a similar statement about the right to empower a government to tax?  Don't just say, 'the right to tax comes from the right to build roads,' because roads can be built with voluntarily purchased bonds paid for by voluntarily paid tolls. 

Happens all the time.

If the government's "power to tax" was granted to it by the people, where did the people get the "right" to grant the government the power to tax?

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Jeff
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Re: Aggression
Reply #38 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:43pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:40pm:
If the government's "power to tax" was granted to it by the people, where did the people get the "right" to grant the government the power to tax?

The same place the people got the right to form governments.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Aggression
Reply #39 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:49pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:43pm:
The same place the people got the right to form governments.


Where do you think that is?  You obviously disagree with my thinking on where we get the right to form governments, so tell my your idea.

If the government's "power to tax" was granted to it by the people, where did the people get the "right" to grant the government the power to tax?
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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