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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism (Read 628 times)
Snarky Sack
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Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:39pm
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So "our" president (Jeff's anyway) want's to end "birthright citizenship.”  He thinks it's wrong that a Mexican woman in labor can sneak into El Paso, give birth in an emergency room forced by law to treat her and get her child a U.S. birth certificate that entitles her to stay.

First of all, you have to "draw the line" somewhere.  If the border means anything, it should mean that people born on this side are U.S. people and people born on the other side are Mexican people.

But, as usual, the statist misses the point.  The point is that no one should have extra rights based on which side of El Rio Grand-eh they were born on.  Cut out welfare altogether and you won't have to worry about people sneaking over to get it.  Since we offer free public schooling including bilingual education primarily for kids of people who do sneak over, the rate of illegal immigration should surprise no one.

  

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SkyChief
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #1 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:49pm
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All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside...

An Executive Order can never usurp the Constitution.

The only way to end Brithright Citizenship is to amend the 14th Amendment.

As President, Trump should know this.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #2 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:08pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:39pm:
So "our" president (Jeff's anyway) want's to end "birthright citizenship.”  He thinks it's wrong that a Mexican woman in labor can sneak into El Paso, give birth in an emergency room forced by law to treat her and get her child a U.S. birth certificate that entitles her to stay.

First of all, you have to "draw the line" somewhere.  If the border means anything, it should mean that people born on this side are U.S. people and people born on the other side are Mexican people.

But, as usual, the statist misses the point.  The point is that no one should have extra rights based on which side of El Rio Grand-eh they were born on.  Cut out welfare altogether and you won't have to worry about people sneaking over to get it.  Since we offer free public schooling including bilingual education primarily for kids of people who do sneak over, the rate of illegal immigration should surprise no one.

Are we talking from theories of pure liberty? If so, does the term "citizen" mean anything under those theories?

Technically, you are correct, I'm a citizen of the U.S. and Trump is the current President of the U.S., so he is "my" president, but only in that narrow technical sense.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #3 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:17pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 12:49pm:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside...

An Executive Order can never usurp the Constitution.

The only way to end Brithright Citizenship is to amend the 14th Amendment.

As President, Trump should know this. 

I think he's just trying to stir up his base before the election...

I have thoughts about the 14th Amendment...

I believe the purpose was to grant citizenship to former slaves.

It makes an exemption (or has been held to by construction anyway) for persons not under the jurisdiction of the U.S. such as foreign diplomats, so it seems to me the issue turns on whether or not a citizen of a foreign country is actually "under the jurisdiction" of the United States just by being here...

Could it be argued that a citizen of a foreign nation is still under the jurisdiction of their own country, no matter where they go?

Do U.S. citizens who travel to foreign countries come wholly under the jurisdiction of foreign countries when they travel, or do they retain protections of their own government?

Does the U.S. tax it's citizens when they are living in foreign countries and earning money there? That sounds like a claim that U.S. jurisdiction travels with the citizen...
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #4 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:23pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:17pm:
I think he's just trying to stir up his base before the election...

I have thoughts about the 14th Amendment...

I believe the purpose was to grant citizenship to former slaves.

It makes an exemption (or has been held to by construction anyway) for persons not under the jurisdiction of the U.S. such as foreign diplomats, so it seems to me the issue turns on whether or not a citizen of a foreign country is actually "under the jurisdiction" of the United States just by being here...



Well, which is it, Jeff?

Does it make and exception or has it "been held to by construction anyway?"  It must be one or the other as you acknowledged with the word "or."
  

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Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #5 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:39pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:23pm:
Well, which is it, Jeff?

Does it make and exception or has it "been held to by construction anyway?"  It must be one or the other as you acknowledged with the word "or."
Read the 14th Amendment and decide for yourself.

Was it the intention of the American people to have children born in the U.S. to foreign diplomats be birthright citizens?

Why don't you take the time to find out what was in the minds of the people who ratified the 14th Amendment and let us know.

Probably you'll have to do some reading in S.Ct. opinions regarding what exactly is meant by "the jurisdiction of the U.S. or at least what the S.Ct. has said about it, which you claim is definitive.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #6 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:44pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:39pm:
Read the 14th Amendment and decide for yourself.


It makes no mention of diplomats so there is no exception, correct?  The wife of the ambassador of Niger has a baby on an inbound airline flight right after it crosses over our coastline and that baby is every bit as American as your own children, correct?

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Was it the intention of the American people to have children born in the U.S. to foreign diplomats be birthright citizens?

Why don't you take the time to find out what was in the minds of the people who ratified the 14th Amendment and let us know.


It's much easier to look at the words which - again - make no such exception.

We have to follow the words of the constitution.  Who has the ability to judge based on reading the minds of people in previous centuries?  Not even we mind scientists claim such abilities.



  

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Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #7 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:53pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:44pm:
It makes no mention of diplomats so there is no exception, correct?  The wife of the ambassador of Niger has a baby on an inbound airline flight right after it crosses over our coastline and that baby is every bit as American as your own children, correct?



Is that what you think?

Does the term "citizen" actually have any meaning?

Anyway, lets get rid of the welfare state and see just how meaningless this argument becomes.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #8 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:55pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:44pm:
It's much easier to look at the words which - again - make no such exception.

We have to follow the words of the constitution.  Who has the ability to judge based on reading the minds of people in previous centuries?  Not even we mind scientists claim such abilities.



So all this time you've been telling me SCOTUS decides what the Constitution means you were misrepresenting your true belief?

You can get a good sense of what the people who ratified amendments were thinking by reading the records of the debates in the ratifying conventions. Smiley
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #9 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 4:05pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 3:39pm:
Read the 14th Amendment and decide for yourself.

Was it the intention of the American people to have children born in the U.S. to foreign diplomats be birthright citizens?


Was it the intention of the American people to have African-Americans become full and equal citizens of the United States, going to school with and marrying whites when they ratified the 14th?  Pretty much everyone agreed on that?




  

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