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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism (Read 632 times)
Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #70 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 7:25am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 3rd, 2018 at 7:58pm:
Non-citizens pay property taxes through their rents, as you yourself have pointed out in a previous post.   
If they rent, yes.

If your community wants to let non-citizens vote in local elections and/or run for local offices like the school board, I see nothing to stop them.

If your community refuses to let non-citizens vote or run for office, I see nothing to stop that either.

Of course we're  actually talking about non-residents of a town or city or county here, I think, maybe... Probably we should be.

No school system or school can allow anyone and everyone from anywhere to just decide to send their children to the local schools unless they have bad schools nobody wants to send their children to anyway.

I see not letting resident non-citizens vote as an incentive for them to become citizens, and if you are allowing their children to attend your schools, but not giving them a voice in how your schools are run, that's another incentive for them to become citizens.

While you're talking some town into abolishing taxation and running their government and schools by donations, talk them into letting non-citizens control the schools if non-citizens happen to be the majority in the town.
  
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #71 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 7:31am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 3rd, 2018 at 5:06pm:
In some of the schools I consult for, there are often more non-citizen parents than citizen parents.  Should the minority rule the majority by being the only ones allowed to vote for school board members?
Did I answer this?

School boards don't actually rule anybody, they just set policy for the schools, or they used to anyway. I think the federal and state DOE bureaucrats do that now...

Should that really tiny minority of bureaucrats be allowed to rule over all of our schools?
  
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #72 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 8:29am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 7:25am:
If they rent, yes.

If your community wants to let non-citizens vote in local elections and/or run for local offices like the school board, I see nothing to stop them.

If your community refuses to let non-citizens vote or run for office, I see nothing to stop that either.


But the decision of whether to allow non-citizens a say is made by the citizens?  So, if the majority of the community members are non-citizens, the minority of the community members who are citizens have the right to prevent the majority from having a say in how their tax dollars are spent?  Tyranny of the minority and you're fine with it?


Quote:
Of course we're  actually talking about non-residents of a town or city or county here, I think, maybe... Probably we should be.


No, the non-citizens live in the district.

Quote:
No school system or school can allow anyone and everyone from anywhere to just decide to send their children to the local schools unless they have bad schools nobody wants to send their children to anyway.

I see not letting resident non-citizens vote as an incentive for them to become citizens, and if you are allowing their children to attend your schools, but not giving them a voice in how your schools are run, that's another incentive for them to become citizens.


They have plenty of incentive for that already.  Meanwhile, they are parents and taxpayers so they have as much right as anyone to a say in how that tax money is spent on their children.

Unless you just believe that adults are children to be taken care of by the nanny state.
  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #73 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 8:30am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 7:31am:
Did I answer this?

School boards don't actually rule anybody, they just set policy for the schools, or they used to anyway. I think the federal and state DOE bureaucrats do that now...

Should that really tiny minority of bureaucrats be allowed to rule over all of our schools?


No, they should not.  But that's what happens when you give government the power to tax.


  

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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #74 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 8:40am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 7:04am:
The "fair share" idea isn't mine, "progressives" have been tossing it about for decades..



Right, yourself included.  You brought up the idea of a "fair share," that the non-citizens are supposedly not paying.

So, how much is a "fair share?"

You seem to take as a given that non-citizens don't own houses.  Probably the don't own them as often as citizens, but they do own them.  Is the rent that non-citizens who don't own their own houses pay not enough of a fair share, since the landlord uses that rent to pay property taxes?  What about the hillbilly rednecks who lives in the apartment next to the non-citizen?  The crack dealer parents who deal off the balcony?  The Tejanos whose ancestors were in Texas before the Texas Revolution so they didn't cross the border but the border crossed them?  The still live in the same apartment complex and speak Spanish as well as English.  Are all those American citizens not paying their fair share?

The whole point of you "good idea" to educate all the children of the community is to educate the ones whose parents can't afford to educate them so their not paying a "fair share" is the entire principle of your "good idea."

Unless you have some other meaning of "fair share" in mind?   
  

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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #75 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 9:16am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 8:29am:
But the decision of whether to allow non-citizens a say is made by the citizens?  So, if the majority of the community members are non-citizens, the minority of the community members who are citizens have the right to prevent the majority from having a say in how their tax dollars are spent?  Tyranny of the minority and you're fine with it?

If citizenship means nothing, then I want to vote in Canada's next election, or Russia's...

In fact citizenship is tied to the creation of governments, and non-citizens are not free to alter the governments created by citizens.

If you open the borders and allow non-citizens the vote, they will thereby be empowered to alter or abolish the legitimate government(s) of the U.S. which I suppose is what you want.

Local governments, as all of our governments, were created by the citizens of the nation or state or locality, and they were created for the benefit of citizens of the nation or state or locality. It is therefore the citizens, and only the citizens, who have any legitimate power to alter those governments, and it is the citizens alone who can legitimately decide who will be allowed to participate in the political processes they have created as a part of their government.

The short answer is no, not even if they are a majority are non-citizens empowered to change our laws or governments.
  
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #76 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 9:17am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 8:40am:
Right, yourself included.  You brought up the idea of a "fair share," that the non-citizens are supposedly not paying.

So, how much is a "fair share?"


There is no such thing as a "fair share" in the context of taxation or government expenditures. I'm sorry I mentioned it and won't do it again.
As I've said before, the idea of the Constitution was to try to ensure that most people paid something, and that expenditures were for only truly national purposes.
  
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #77 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 12:05pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 9:17am:
There is no such thing as a "fair share" in the context of taxation or government expenditures. I'm sorry I mentioned it and won't do it again.
As I've said before, the idea of the Constitution was to try to ensure that most people paid something, and that expenditures were for only truly national purposes.


Well put, Sir!

  

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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #78 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 12:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 9:16am:
If citizenship means nothing, then I want to vote in Canada's next election, or Russia's...


You're not governed by the governments in Canada or Russia.  They don't tax you and they don't regulate your behavior and you wouldn't call on them for help in defending yourself against aggression.

Non-citizens living in the United States and being required to send their children to public schools are government by those school boards and the taxing authority that funds the district. 

Citizenship does mean something, but I don't assign it the tribal, "them and us" meaning that you do.  I love Texas and Texans, but being born here is not an accomplishment of mine, it is an accident of birth.


Quote:
In fact citizenship is tied to the creation of governments, and non-citizens are not free to alter the governments created by citizens.

If you open the borders and allow non-citizens the vote, they will thereby be empowered to alter or abolish the legitimate government(s) of the U.S. which I suppose is what you want.

Local governments, as all of our governments, were created by the citizens of the nation or state or locality, and they were created for the benefit of citizens of the nation or state or locality. It is therefore the citizens, and only the citizens, who have any legitimate power to alter those governments, and it is the citizens alone who can legitimately decide who will be allowed to participate in the political processes they have created as a part of their government.

The short answer is no, not even if they are a majority are non-citizens empowered to change our laws or governments.


Then you believe in government by non-consent and taxation without representation. 
  

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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #79 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 12:53pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 12:09pm:
You're not governed by the governments in Canada or Russia.
I'll show up in person on their election days.
  
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