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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism (Read 631 times)
Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #80 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 1:06pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 12:09pm:
Citizenship does mean something, but I don't assign it the tribal, "them and us" meaning that you do.
I'm not tribal and neither is our government. In fact our government is prohibited from treating different tribes of people differently or different individuals differently.

That is not the issue. The issue is at the level of citizenship and how it relates to government.

Our government was not created by non-citizens to serve the entire world, it was created by citizens to serve citizens and their dependents, and to give citizens a voice in what and how our government does to serve us.

You want to change the nature of our government so that non-citizens have a voice, and if their voice in some place happens to be the majority, you want them to determine how our government operates.

Living here and working and paying taxes should make it easy for you to become a citizen. If you want to vote, become a citizen.

Advocating to allow non-citizens the vote is most likely to have the effect of even more people wanting to build walls and keep everyone out.

Part of the idea of citizenship is uniting people in a common enterprise, as in "We are all Americans who can chart the courses of our own lives and set the limits of our own governments." It's a very useful feeling to encourage.

Edit: Yes, that's tribal on  national level, but it doesn't preclude being a part of the larger humanity of the entire earth.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #81 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 3:30pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 12:09pm:
Non-citizens living in the United States and being required to send their children to public schools are government by those school boards and the taxing authority that funds the district. 

It should be noted that in some parts of the country, undocumented immigrants are encoraged to vote in school elections.

Other municipalities have opened up local elections to non-citizens as well.

This is a hot-button issue in the California Governor race.  Naturally, the Dem candidate, Gavin Newsom supports voting privileges for illegals.   His opponent, John Cox (R) adamantly opposes it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/san-francisco-allows-undocumented-i...
  
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Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #82 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 3:50pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 3:30pm:
It should be noted that in some parts of the country, undocumented immigrants are encoraged to vote in school elections.

Other municipalities have opened up local elections to non-citizens as well.

How's it working out? Has anything that can be connected to it gotten noticeably better or worse?
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #83 - Nov 4th, 2018 at 6:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 3:50pm:
How's it working out? Has anything that can be connected to it gotten noticeably better or worse?

Democrats favor voting privileges for illegals because they typically vote for progressives and think US taxpayers should pay to school immigrant children.

Governor Brown agrees.  But he's out on January 7th.  The next Governor, Gavin Newsom will carry the torch for Brown and strongly supports voting privileges for illegals.

California is a "sanctuary" State.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #84 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 6:25am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 6:36pm:
Democrats favor voting privileges for illegals because they typically vote for progressives and think US taxpayers should pay to school immigrant children.

Governor Brown agrees.  But he's out on January 7th.  The next Governor, Gavin Newsom will carry the torch for Brown and strongly supports voting privileges for illegals.

California is a "sanctuary" State.
Yes, I'm aware of all that, but you mentioned municipalities and school elections, and that's what I'm interested in.

Has letting non-citizens vote in those elections had any noticeable effects? How long has it been going on?

Maybe it is a good idea that will actually improve the cities and the schools...

Edit: In his retirement, James Madison changed his position that the vote should only be granted to male freeholders, advocating to broaden the privilege to include everyone who worked and paid taxes.... Had he lived until now, he might be advocating for universal suffrage, even for non-citizens... His most constant belief was that practical means must always be devised and implemented to ensure that the greatest number of people were ensured of the greatest liberty possible in a civilized society of laws.

I'm with him. If it can be demonstrated that universal suffrage including non-citizens will act best to ensure the protection of lives, liberty and property, I'm for it.

Is not what these Kalifornia municipalities are doing a good test of the effects?
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #85 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 9:33am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 1:06pm:
I'm not tribal and neither is our government. In fact our government is prohibited from treating different tribes of people differently or different individuals differently.

That is not the issue. The issue is at the level of citizenship and how it relates to government.

Our government was not created by non-citizens to serve the entire world, it was created by citizens to serve citizens and their dependents, and to give citizens a voice in what and how our government does to serve us.

You want to change the nature of our government so that non-citizens have a voice, and if their voice in some place happens to be the majority, you want them to determine how our government operates.

Living here and working and paying taxes should make it easy for you to become a citizen. If you want to vote, become a citizen.


In a libertarian society, it won't make that much difference whether one is a citizen or not.  Government will be so limited that voting for Mayor will have less affect on our lives than voting for Prom Queen.

yes, we need to make it easier for people to immigrate and become citizens.  Until we achieve that libertarian society, which includes our neighbors on the continent also being libertarian, we do have to control our borders to makes sure would-be citizens are worthy to join us.

Quote:
Advocating to allow non-citizens the vote is most likely to have the effect of even more people wanting to build walls and keep everyone out.

Part of the idea of citizenship is uniting people in a common enterprise, as in "We are all Americans who can chart the courses of our own lives and set the limits of our own governments." It's a very useful feeling to encourage.

Edit: Yes, that's tribal on  national level, but it doesn't preclude being a part of the larger humanity of the entire earth.


Well, I appreciate that you're willing to self-correct.  You've done that a few times lately and I applaud it.  So much so that I'm going to take my latest signature mocking you for saying, "I'm think I'm going to backtrack" off my posts.  As soon as I figure out how.

Anyway, I see what you're saying about being tribal and also having a common humanity.  True, so far as it goes.  But that's not the point of libertarianism.  In fact expanding the tribalism to include all humanity is the opposite of the direction a libertarian should go.

You correctly oppose nationalizing education because a local  school district doesn't need 325 Million Americans voting on how their district is run.  I'm with you.  I assume you would also oppose a state education agency because that same local school district doesn't need to be run by 10 Million North Carolinians.

What you fail to understand is that by the same logic, one family doesn't need the other five thousand families in its school district voting (directly or through representatives) on how to best educate that family's children and forcing it to contribute to a collective education fund.  Decisions are best made at the lowest level possible and for children, there is rarely any reason for those decisions to go above the level of the family.

I hate that this means that some children's parents won't have the time, training nor the inclination to make sure they get educated.  They may have to educate themselves once they are free from parental bonds.  Of course most of those children are not learning anything in public school since those same parents don't care any more about education just because it is "free."

I would be happy to donate money toward a charity school since I am so dedicated to education.  Many others would be also if government got out of the way and took their hands out of our bank accounts.
 
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #86 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 9:34am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 4th, 2018 at 1:06pm:
I'm not tribal and neither is our government. In fact our government is prohibited from treating different tribes of people differently or different individuals differently.

That is not the issue. The issue is at the level of citizenship and how it relates to government.

Our government was not created by non-citizens to serve the entire world, it was created by citizens to serve citizens and their dependents, and to give citizens a voice in what and how our government does to serve us.

You want to change the nature of our government so that non-citizens have a voice, and if their voice in some place happens to be the majority, you want them to determine how our government operates.

Living here and working and paying taxes should make it easy for you to become a citizen. If you want to vote, become a citizen.


In a libertarian society, it won't make that much difference whether one is a citizen or not.  Government will be so limited that voting for Mayor will have less affect on our lives than voting for Prom Queen.

yes, we need to make it easier for people to immigrate and become citizens.  Until we achieve that libertarian society, which includes our neighbors on the continent also being libertarian, we do have to control our borders to makes sure would-be citizens are worthy to join us.

Quote:
Advocating to allow non-citizens the vote is most likely to have the effect of even more people wanting to build walls and keep everyone out.

Part of the idea of citizenship is uniting people in a common enterprise, as in "We are all Americans who can chart the courses of our own lives and set the limits of our own governments." It's a very useful feeling to encourage.

Edit: Yes, that's tribal on  national level, but it doesn't preclude being a part of the larger humanity of the entire earth.


Well, I appreciate that you're willing to self-correct.  You've done that a few times lately and I applaud it.  So much so that I'm going to take my latest signature mocking you for saying, "I'm think I'm going to backtrack" off my posts. 

As soon as I figure out how . . .

Anyway, I see what you're saying about being tribal and also having a common humanity.  True, so far as it goes.  But that's not the point of libertarianism.  In fact expanding the tribalism to include all humanity is the opposite of the direction a libertarian should go.

You correctly oppose nationalizing education because a local  school district doesn't need 325 Million Americans voting on how their district is run.  I'm with you.  I assume you would also oppose a state education agency because that same local school district doesn't need to be run by 10 Million North Carolinians.

What you fail to understand is that by the same logic, one family doesn't need the other five thousand families in its school district voting (directly or through representatives) on how to best educate that family's children and forcing it to contribute to a collective education fund.  Decisions are best made at the lowest level possible and for children, there is rarely any reason for those decisions to go above the level of the family.

I hate that this means that some children's parents won't have the time, training nor the inclination to make sure they get educated.  They may have to educate themselves once they are free from parental bonds.  Of course most of those children are not learning anything in public school since those same parents don't care any more about education just because it is "free."

I would be happy to donate money toward a charity school since I am so dedicated to education.  Many others would be also if government got out of the way and took their hands out of our bank accounts.
 
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
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SkyChief
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #87 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 11:49am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 6:25am:
Yes, I'm aware of all that, but you mentioned municipalities and school elections, and that's what I'm interested in.

...Is not what these Kalifornia municipalities are doing a good test of the effects?

It is a good test of the effects.   But they play their cards close to the vest, so if a program turns out to be a failure, it's kept a secret.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #88 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 2:35pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 9:33am:
In a libertarian society...
We've got a pretty libertarian society in America today as far as societies throughout history go, but our government keeps getting more authoritarian.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Brithright Citizenship and Libertarianism
Reply #89 - Nov 5th, 2018 at 2:44pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 9:34am:
Anyway, I see what you're saying about being tribal and also having a common humanity.  True, so far as it goes.  But that's not the point of libertarianism.  In fact expanding the tribalism to include all humanity is the opposite of the direction a libertarian should go.
I see the point of libertarian ideas and policy proposals being to maximize liberty for the greatest number of people possible. That's I view I probably adopted from the classical liberals, it's a liberal minded idea.

Tribalism, in that it doesn't view all the people of the world as being part of that common humanity endowed at birth with equal rights, is detrimental to that libertarian idea.

I only support American tribalism/nationalism because it is better than having some people in America being viewed as less a part of humankind than others, and because so much of the world is dedicated to destroying the idea of America and America itself.
  
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