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Snarky Sack
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Do Animals Have Governments?
Oct 31st, 2018 at 1:51pm
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Of course the do.  Not all of them, but specific species have the instinct to govern and be governed.  Bees follow the queen to a new location.  Birds follow the leader in formation.  Pack animals hunt on the trail that their alpha sets for them. 

Our "nearest relatives" bonobo chimpanzees have a matriarchal rank system which actually controls male aggression and makes them one of the most  peaceful of the primate species (way more peaceful than humans.).

How does a dog sled owner decide which dog will be the lead sled dog?   

Answer:  He doesn't.  He lets the dogs fight it out and puts the winner in front.  Anything else would be detrimental to his purpose of having his dogs pull his sled.  The lead dog no doubt prides himself on being in charge even as his master hooks him to the traces.

The need to govern and be governed is animalistic and tribal.  When our ancestors learned to farm the land instead of roaming in packs, the value of individual effort versus group control was quickly apparent.  Unfortunately, their still-nomadic and well-armed counterparts found them such a useful source of food during times of poor hunting opportunities that they eventually invented feudalism and our first opportunity to be free  human beings was lost for centuries.

  

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The Opposition
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Re: Do Animals Have Governments?
Reply #1 - Oct 31st, 2018 at 9:32pm
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In the same way the dog sledder goes with the flow of dominance, so too does the free market. The most dominant apes get put in front not because they produce any more value than anyone else, but because they fought it out and won. The business owner is no different than the dog sledder. If he chooses productivity over dominance, and sets the less dominant dog above the more dominant one, infighting will ensue and the sled won't get pulled.

I think you understand what it means to be a social animal. It would take hundreds of thousands of years of evolution to go against this flow.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Do Animals Have Governments?
Reply #2 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 7:50am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 1:51pm:
The need to govern and be governed is animalistic and tribal.
Aside from the fact that your examples have nothing to do with government, the human impulse to create governments arises from desires to raise humans to a level above that of animalistic law-of-the jungle states.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Do Animals Have Governments?
Reply #3 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 7:53am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 31st, 2018 at 9:32pm:
In the same way the dog sledder goes with the flow of dominance, so too does the free market.
Why not talk about free markets under a rule of law? It's the rule of law that makes free markets something far better than your example of fighting it out and winner takes all.

Free markets are based on voluntary mutually beneficial free exchanges, voluntary trade rather than warfare.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Do Animals Have Governments?
Reply #4 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 8:45am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 7:50am:
Aside from the fact that your examples have nothing to do with government, the human impulse to create governments arises from desires to raise humans to a level above that of animalistic law-of-the jungle states.


How'd that work out?

  

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Jeff
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Re: Do Animals Have Governments?
Reply #5 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 8:57am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 8:45am:
How'd that work out?

In places where people actually created their own governments? Pretty well.

Even in places where governments are simply imposed on them, its almost always better than living as wild animals.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Do Animals Have Governments?
Reply #6 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 9:35am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 8:57am:
In places where people actually created their own governments? Pretty well.


Like where?  Where did people create their own governments and the majority of the people enjoyed the benefits of freedom, safety and prosperity that civilization  provides?

Quote:
Even in places where governments are simply imposed on them, its almost always better than living as wild animals.


The first governments were imposed on farmers who were already living as better than wild animals by nomadic tribes who were much closer to animals than the farmers they governed.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Do Animals Have Governments?
Reply #7 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 9:36am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 9:35am:
Like where?  Where did people create their own governments and the majority of the people enjoyed the benefits of freedom, safety and prosperity that civilization  provides?



The U.S.A.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Do Animals Have Governments?
Reply #8 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 9:39am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 9:35am:
The first governments were imposed on farmers who were already living as better than wild animals by nomadic tribes who were much closer to animals than the farmers they governed.


You're saying tribal warlords are governments?

I'll claim that Indians in America who lived in the Iroquois Confederation of tribes had it better than those who lived near them. Shocked
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Do Animals Have Governments?
Reply #9 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 9:43am
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Snarky Sack wrote Today at 9:35am:
Quote:
Like where?  Where did people create their own governments and the majority of the people enjoyed the benefits of freedom, safety and prosperity that civilization  provides?


Jeff wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 9:36am:
The U.S.A.


Really?

When the government of the U.S.A was created, the majority of the people enjoyed freedom, safety and prosperity?

That's your actual claim?


  

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