Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 16 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education (Read 831 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #10 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 7:58pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 7:50pm:
It needs no explanation if you think that all kids should be provided for equally, regardless of the actions of their parents and that government should make sure they are. 

If you believe that, be honest and say so.

How can you not know that I don't think its any governments job to equally "provide for" anything for everybody other than equality under the laws.

Offering every child an opportunity to get a basic education is not the same as "providing for" all children.

Please try not to be so loose in your use of language.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 7896
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #11 - Nov 1st, 2018 at 9:23pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 7:58pm:
How can you not know that I don't think its any governments job to equally "provide for" anything for everybody other than equality under the laws.

Offering every child an opportunity to get a basic education is not the same as "providing for" all children.


It definitively is. It is providing an education for all children.

You always ridicule me when I claim that charity won't take care of everyone.

So where is private charity for education? Why won't private charity just magically fix this problem? You say it'll magically fix hunger once welfare is gone.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #12 - Nov 2nd, 2018 at 8:01am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 9:23pm:
It definitively is. It is providing an education for all children.

You always ridicule me when I claim that charity won't take care of everyone.

So where is private charity for education? Why won't private charity just magically fix this problem? You say it'll magically fix hunger once welfare is gone.
It offers an opportunity. Some parents turn down the opportunity and send their kids to private schools, but having most of the people in your community educated is beneficial to the entire community.

I never even imagined that charity would or could "take care of everyone".

What will fix most economic problems, and problems related to the economy (like poverty) is the end of the welfare state and the freeing of the economy.

People donate lots of money to schools (mostly private colleges) but parents donate time and school supplies to local schools.

It's my opinion that locally funded local schools under local control have a good effect on communities by making sure every child that wants an education can get one.

Setting up a hospital and offering medical care to everyone is something even privately funded charity hospitals can't do, and using the power of government to tax and then offering medical care to everyone has proven to have bad effects on the entire system.

Perhaps if a local community decided to use local property taxes to establish and fund a hospital under local control available to everyone in the community, they could avoid some of the problems of national universal medical care, but there are distortions (caused by government) in the insurance industry that sells medical insurance that a local hospital can't control.

If you have employer paid medical insurance, you have no incentive to not use it and demand all the latest and greatest testing and treatment, and doctors and hospitals have every incentive to provide it to you. Possibly you can see how this artificially drives up the cost of both insurance and medical care?

That's not something that is going on in schools. People aren't provided and don't buy 'education insurance'.

Tax funded public schools are workable and work well if they are under local control and funded locally, and they provide a benefit to the entire community.

They aren't comparable to tax funded medical care which has proven to have widespread bad effects. Yes, you can provide basic medical care for everyone, but the level of care will necessarily be low and innovation in medicine will cease because there will be no financial motivation  to innovate.

Schools don't need innovation and new technology and new techniques to provide a good basic education to everyone, and I think experience in the U.S. has shown that such innovation has caused the quality of basic educations to deteriorate rather than progress.

It's just not reasonable to compare free public schooling with free medical care. They are too different.

Edit: Some community should try a local tax funded hospital under local control that provided basic medical services, but nothing else. 1960s technology would be fine for almost every child who needed some medical attention and couldn't get it, but they would face liability issues. They would be sued if some child died in their care because all they used was 1960s level technology and treatment, so it wouldn't be possible, they would have to have all the latest 21st Century technology and provide all the latest 21st Century drugs... very expensive stuff... So they would have to operate just like every other modern hospital.

Maybe they could just fund a community clinic that could handle the basics and offer them free to every child in the community, but no one else.

That might work.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4171
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #13 - Nov 2nd, 2018 at 9:27am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Nov 1st, 2018 at 7:58pm:
How can you not know that I don't think its any governments job to equally "provide for" anything for everybody other than equality under the laws.

Offering every child an opportunity to get a basic education is not the same as "providing for" all children.



Neither is offering every child an opportunity for basic health care. 

You have yet to explain the difference. 

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #14 - Nov 2nd, 2018 at 9:39am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 2nd, 2018 at 9:27am:
Neither is offering every child an opportunity for basic health care. 

You have yet to explain the difference. 

The difference I see is in the results. One has good results, the other bad results.

I'm willing to have communities of local people try out all sorts of things if they think they will work better.

What I really object to is top down mandates from the federal government.

But in fact, that leads me back to thinking, where is the Constitutional grant of power for the federal government to be involved at all in either education or health care?

I can't find it anywhere... You find it in the "progressively" re-interpreted general welfare clause, and seem to be arguing for total government control of health care as well as education.

BTW, I don't think support for single payer health care is "surging" any more than is support for Democratic Socialism.

Offer people false binary choices and you will get the answers you want to polls.

Edit: Sorry, I know you don't want government involved at all in either, but is this really what you think about public education-

"...public health care, assuming it will be as dysfunctional as public education, would be a disaster for all but the community's most irredeemable freeloaders." that it's a "disaster for all but the community's most irredeemable freeloaders."?

Public education can be fixed pretty easily, we know what's wrong... Public health care on the other hand seems to have built in problems that nobody has any idea how to fix.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4171
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #15 - Nov 2nd, 2018 at 9:43am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Nov 2nd, 2018 at 9:39am:
The difference I see is in the results. One has good results, the other bad results.


You're assuming that public hospitals would be inferior to private ones but that people would come to rely on the "free" hospitals so that health care would decline for all but the wealthiest. 

A very valid assumption.

But, I asked for a difference between that an public schools.  That is a similarity.  In fact the example of our declining public schools is one big reason why we can assume that public hospitals would be a disaster.

But previously, you decried denying access to a school based on the parents ability and/or willingness to pay.  What's the difference between that and denying access to a hospital on the same grounds?

Or are you willing to just say that there is no difference and we can move on?




[/quote]
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #16 - Nov 2nd, 2018 at 9:54am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 2nd, 2018 at 9:43am:
But, I asked for a difference between that an public schools.  That is a similarity.  In fact the example of our declining public schools is one big reason why we can assume that public hospitals would be a disaster.


We know the cause of the decline in our public education system, it's federal and state intervention and control. Keeping it local will make it good again.

The same may apply to local public hospitals, but the first step to improving medical care is to get the feds and state governments out of it and the medical insurance business.

No local community can currently try out a locally funded and locally controlled public hospital to see how it might work. State and federal intervention and mandates and controls and regulations make it impossible to even attempt. Local private hospitals are being driven out of business in rural areas, as libertarians said would happen if the ACA passed. Gee, why does single payer start to look good? Because the feds have screwed everything else up.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #17 - Nov 2nd, 2018 at 10:00am
Print Post  
Were there ever local public hospitals?

Yes (from Wiki)-

History
The safety-net role of public hospitals has evolved since 1700s when the first U.S. public hospital sheltered and provided medical healthcare to the poor.[12] Until the late 20th century, public hospitals represented the "poor house" that undertook social welfare roles. The "poor house" also provided secondarily medical care, specifically during epidemics. For this reason, these "poor houses" were later known as "pest" houses. Following this phase was the "practitioner period" during which, the then welfare oriented urban public hospitals changed their focus to medical care and formalized nursing care. This new phase was highlighted by the private physicians providing care to patients outside their private practices into inpatient hospital settings. To put into practice the demands of the Flexner Report published in 1910, public hospitals later benefitted from the best medical care technology to hire full-time staff members,[10] instruct medical and nursing students during the "academic period".[12] The privatization of public hospitals was often contemplated during this period and stalled once an infectious disease outbreak such as influenza in 1918, tuberculosis in the early 1900s, and the polio epidemic in the 1950s hit the U.S.. At this time, with the goal to improve people's health and welfare by allowing for effective health planning and the creation of neighborhood health centers, health policies like the Social Security Act were enacted.[10] This was followed by Medicare and Medicaid Act in 1965 that gave poor people in the U.S., access to inpatient and outpatient medical care[13] from public hospitals after racial segregation ended in the South. With their mandate to care for low income patients, the public hospital started engaging in leadership roles in the communities they care for since the 1980s.

Did they work? Yes, pretty well until the Progressive Era when it was felt that having the federal government involved would make everything better.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4171
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #18 - Nov 2nd, 2018 at 10:25am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Nov 2nd, 2018 at 9:54am:
We know the cause of the decline in our public education system, it's federal and state intervention and control. Keeping it local will make it good again.



When schools were local, they were segregated. 

Most Americans would consider that the opposite of "good."

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #19 - Nov 2nd, 2018 at 10:52am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 2nd, 2018 at 10:25am:
When schools were local, they were segregated. 

Most Americans would consider that the opposite of "good."

So were the buses and restaurants, but only in some ex-slave states.

Don't worry about it happening again, if your school is public, locally controlled or not, the federal government won't let you intentionally discriminate by race, and I don't think anybody but maybe rich "progressives" wants to have segregated schools for their children. You can run a charter school in the inner city that is all black, but they get good results so nobody is complaining.

If all we had were private schools, would children of poor people all get a chance to attend? Nobody can tell in America, because we had local public schools from the beginning (and private schools too.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 16
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy