Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 16 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education (Read 833 times)
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4171
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #100 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 8:00pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 5:23pm:
I've answered your questions.




Oh.

So you did answer this question: 

Where does the right to empower government to take property from others come from?

Can you repeat your answer or tell me which thread and reply number, please and thank you?

  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #101 - Nov 9th, 2018 at 7:49am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 8:00pm:
Oh.

So you did answer this question: 

Where does the right to empower government to take property from others come from?

Can you repeat your answer or tell me which thread and reply number, please and thank you?

What I said was that the right to grant governments the power to tax derives from the right of people to create governments.

Now, how will you devise a plan so that homeowners in a brand new housing development will have the benefits of choosing from among competitive private sewage treatment companies?

For the purposes of discussion, you can assume that there are no government regulations at any level concerning the location or construction of sewers or sewage treatment plants.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4171
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #102 - Nov 9th, 2018 at 10:28am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Nov 9th, 2018 at 7:49am:
What I said was that the right to grant governments the power to tax derives from the right of people to create governments.



We only have a right to create government empowered to do what we as individuals have a right to do.  If I have no right to take my neighbor’s property, I have no right to empower government to do it.  I have the power, just as I have the power to take my neighbor’s lawnmower.  But a power is not the same as a right, no matter how much you would like it to be.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #103 - Nov 9th, 2018 at 3:42pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 9th, 2018 at 10:28am:
We only have a right to create government empowered to do what we as individuals have a right to do.
I'm familiar with that idea, but it leads to anarchy in my opinion, and that usually leads to tyranny.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4171
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #104 - Nov 9th, 2018 at 8:16pm
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote Today at 10:28am:
Quote:
We only have a right to create government empowered to do what we as individuals have a right to do.


Jeff wrote on Nov 9th, 2018 at 3:42pm:
I'm familiar with that idea, but it leads to anarchy in my opinion, and that usually leads to tyranny.


First of all, I challenge you to name one example of when that idea has led to tyranny.  No bluster or theorizing, just name the country.

Second of all, regardless of your speculation as to what it would lead to, can you find a flaw in the logic?
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #105 - Nov 10th, 2018 at 6:56am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 9th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
Snarky Sack wrote Today at 10:28am:


First of all, I challenge you to name one example of when that idea has led to tyranny.  No bluster or theorizing, just name the country.

Second of all, regardless of your speculation as to what it would lead to, can you find a flaw in the logic?
No individual has any right to tax, nor can any individual be granted a power to tax.

Your reasoning is that people do have a right to create governments, but that the governments they create can't be funded with taxation and can't have any police powers etc. because individuals can't have those powers.

Your logic fails at the outset. No individual has any right to create a government, that is something that must be done by general agreement, and if governments can be created by general agreement, as you agree, then those governments can, also by general agreement, be given the power to tax.

A government without the power to tax existed in Poland, where a loose confederation of Magnates ruled individual states, but did not grant the confederation any real power or the power to tax. This led to Poland being overrun and divided up by other countries several times in history. Not anarchy, but not a good result.

The U.S. Articles of Confederation also granted no power of taxation, and that didn't lead to anarchy either, but it did lead to the rapid realization that without he power to tax the confederation was useless and could not protect the several states from being overrun and made once again into colonies by one or the other of the major powers with presences surrounding them in North America (England, France and Spain).

As far as anarchy leading to tyranny, it always has.

It's really up to you, who are proposing something you think is a brand new idea for a government that will have no power at all to explain how it will work and offer examples.

Your latest proposition, that government can have no power beyond that which every individual possesses really does render the government completely with out power. It will not be a government. You might well create some sort of organization, but it will be a business or a corporation, not a government.

Can you name one instance in history where a region without any government did not soon fall under some sore of tyranny or foreign domination. Thanks.

Edit: Try to make it an example that's a bit more modern that stone age tribes, thanks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #106 - Nov 10th, 2018 at 6:57am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 9th, 2018 at 8:16pm:
Snarky Sack wrote Today at 10:28am:


No bluster or theorizing, just name the country.


I love it when you tell me what to do!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Snarky Sack
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 4171
Location: Republic of Me
Joined: Sep 11th, 2017
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #107 - Nov 10th, 2018 at 10:18am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Nov 10th, 2018 at 6:56am:
No individual has any right to tax, nor can any individual be granted a power to tax.

Your reasoning is that people do have a right to create governments, but that the governments they create can't be funded with taxation and can't have any police powers etc. because individuals can't have those powers.

Your logic fails at the outset. No individual has any right to create a government, that is something that must be done by general agreement, and if governments can be created by general agreement, as you agree, then those governments can, also by general agreement, be given the power to tax.

A government without the power to tax existed in Poland, where a loose confederation of Magnates ruled individual states, but did not grant the confederation any real power or the power to tax. This led to Poland being overrun and divided up by other countries several times in history. Not anarchy, but not a good result.

The U.S. Articles of Confederation also granted no power of taxation, and that didn't lead to anarchy either, but it did lead to the rapid realization that without he power to tax the confederation was useless and could not protect the several states from being overrun and made once again into colonies by one or the other of the major powers with presences surrounding them in North America (England, France and Spain).

As far as anarchy leading to tyranny, it always has.

It's really up to you, who are proposing something you think is a brand new idea for a government that will have no power at all to explain how it will work and offer examples.

Your latest proposition, that government can have no power beyond that which every individual possesses really does render the government completely with out power. It will not be a government. You might well create some sort of organization, but it will be a business or a corporation, not a government.

Can you name one instance in history where a region without any government did not soon fall under some sore of tyranny or foreign domination. Thanks.

Edit: Try to make it an example that's a bit more modern that stone age tribes, thanks.


You Poland example doesn't sound like a government unless you explained it badly.  The government under the Articles of Confederation didn't fail by any measure.  What happened was that the founders decided that they wanted to centralize power so they did.  There was no "failing" happening around them which is why the anti-federalists argued against this new, powerful government.

I'll never convince you that government without taxes is possible even though it happened in almost every frontier town.  You take government as a requirement, but you don't explain where the supposed right to form one comes from. 

Is it a natural right?  Is it an absolute right?  If the right to form a government includes the right to have that government use force to fund itself, does it also include the right to have that government conscript soldiers and sailors? 

How about other forms of forced labor, such as a corvée?  If government has the right to tax the earnings of prostitutes, can it also conscript prostitutes to service the conscripted soldiers?  Can it do that to women who are not already prostitutes since it can conscript young people who have no interest in being soldiers?

Please explain the moral differences among those uses of force by government.
  

"I think I'll backtrack." - Jeff
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #108 - Nov 10th, 2018 at 11:21am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 10th, 2018 at 10:18am:
You Poland example doesn't sound like a government unless you explained it badly.
It was a loose confederation of basically feudal states ruled by Magnates. They had agreements to not attack each other and to come to each others aid if they were attacked by some outside government, but there was nothing to enforce a collective response, no taxation to support any government that could organize the various states, and no one who had any authority to command the resources of Poland if it was attacked. Consequently, when they were attacked, they fought valiantly and often brilliantly, but without any coordination, and they were overrun and divided up among other powers who did have central governments in command of armies supported by national taxation.

It was similar to the United States under the Articles of Confederation, but the people selected by the people of the various states to improve the Articles of Confederation in convention had the foresight to create the government they created with the Constitution so as to avoid becoming Poland. They knew about Poland.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 35513
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #109 - Nov 10th, 2018 at 11:28am
Print Post  
Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 10th, 2018 at 10:18am:
I'll never convince you that government without taxes is possible even though it happened in almost every frontier town.
We talked about this. Those frontier towns were in U.S. Territory operating under an established rule of law, and they very rapidly grew, formed governments of their own, created state constitutions and applied to Congress for admission to the Union. They didn't tax much, because they had very limited governments that didn't need much revenue to operate, but they taxed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 16
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy