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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education (Read 829 times)
Jeff
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #70 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 11:33am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 10:59am:
It illustrates that sometimes, even in the best circumstances, incentives are created to cheat the system precisely because someone higher-up is measuring success in an exploitable way.

The company you worked for decided to cheat the people they contracted to work for so they could make more money.

Bureaucrats on fixed salaries decided to make themselves look good to Congress by throwing away taxpayers money.

I don't see similarities at all.
  
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Snarky Sack
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #71 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:10pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 5:56pm:
There are cities that have used privatization to reduce the size and cost of their government, but they had pretty good government to begin with... And I'm certain that reducing the size and cost of their governments helped reduce corruption.


You don't have examples, but you are "certain" they exist?

  

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Snarky Sack
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #72 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:18pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 5th, 2018 at 5:51pm:
I said reducing the size of bureaucracies would reduce corruption. If you privatize a service and increase the size of the bureaucracy at the same time, you can't expect either savings or a reduction in corruption.


You said:

Quote: Quote:
Privatization introduces competition and eliminates the funneling of money to government unions. It permits elimination of huge expensive bureaucracies.


I'm asking when that happened?  Because in all the instances of which I am aware, bureaucracy had to grow in order to allow for monitoring of the the private contractors.

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There are many instances of privatization that have saved money, narrowly measured, but privatization has not in general served to reduce the size or cost of government. You can't lay that at the feet of privatization. Putting your garbage collection out for bidding and contracting it to a private firm can save lots of money, but it won't help if your city government decides it needs to hire more bureaucrats in the Dept. of Public Works than are already there to specially watch over the garbage collection company. The reality is that privatizing garbage collection enables city governments to get rid of bureaucrats, but they don't want to do it. Instead they want to try to steer the garbage collection contract to some of their cronies.


That's exactly right.  Which is why I put "privatize" in quotes in an earlier response.  Contracting Joe Bob's Trash Haulin' to pick up garbage instead of having city workers do it isn't privatizing.   That's just hiring bureaucrats and government workers through a different method.

Privatizing would be shutting down the city waste disposal agency and opening the field up to private haulers.  Let Joe Bob go after customers by offering the best service at the best prices.

That would both improve the cost effectiveness and eliminate bureaucracy.

  

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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #73 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 1:47pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:10pm:
You don't have examples, but you are "certain" they exist?

Yes.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #74 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 1:52pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
I'm asking when that happened?  Because in all the instances of which I am aware, bureaucracy had to grow in order to allow for monitoring of the the private contractors.



The same bureaucrats who used to monitor the cities garbage collectors can easily monitor private contractors who are collecting garbage, and the bureaucracy can be reduced in size, because nobody has any longer to take care of payroll and retirement and medical benefits etc. for the city employees who are no longer employed by the city.

The government lied to you if they said they needed more employees in the bureaucracy after they privatized services.
  
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #75 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 2:07pm
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Snarky Sack wrote Today at 12:18pm:
Quote:
I'm asking when that happened?  Because in all the instances of which I am aware, bureaucracy had to grow in order to allow for monitoring of the the private contractors.


Jeff wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 1:52pm:
The same bureaucrats who used to monitor the cities garbage collectors can easily monitor private contractors who are collecting garbage, and the bureaucracy can be reduced in size, because nobody has any longer to take care of payroll and retirement and medical benefits etc. for the city employees who are no longer employed by the city.


Right, they can easily do that.  But that never happens.  Privatization is yet another seemingly good government idea that never worked out

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The government lied to you


No kidding?

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if they said they needed more employees in the bureaucracy after they privatized services.


The justification they use is that they didn't privatize all garbage collection, just some of it as a test.  So they need an entirely new set of bureaucrats because the existing ones will still be busy.

Why do you keep expecting government to act differently than it always has acted?

  

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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #76 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:18pm:
That's exactly right.  Which is why I put "privatize" in quotes in an earlier response.  Contracting Joe Bob's Trash Haulin' to pick up garbage instead of having city workers do it isn't privatizing.   That's just hiring bureaucrats and government workers through a different method.

Privatizing would be shutting down the city waste disposal agency and opening the field up to private haulers.  Let Joe Bob go after customers by offering the best service at the best prices.

That would both improve the cost effectiveness and eliminate bureaucracy.

That's what is called the privatizing of services.

Putting a service up for bids from private contractors, hiring the best one and having them perform the service. No, it's not enabling a free market in garbage collection, but it makes Bob responsible for handling his own employees, who are not government employees, and since Bob want's to make a profit from his contract, he is highly motivated to not have a lot of overhead. (Governments are motivated to have a lot of overhead in the form of both bureaucrats and unionized workers). Bob won't have a supervisor out with each and every work crew like you see with city maintenance crews. Bob won't have a special driver to take his employees to their garbage trucks trucks at the start of the day and return them to their cars at the end of the day.

There are significant savings that can be realized.

The county I live in runs a landfill. Private contractors can use it (are supposed to use it) and they pay to use it. The town I live in provides garbage collection by contracting with a private business. If you live in the county, but not in town, you can take your trash to a collection site or to the landfill. Some things you might want to take to the landfill will incur a charge. It works pretty well and doesn't cost much for anybody. Nobody seems interested in starting up a business to provide garbage collection throughout the county...

I understand you want to get the town and county governments out of the business completely. Go to government meetings and try to stir up support. Write editorials. Post your ideas for completely private trash collection and disposal on social media. I think you won't find much support, but I could be wrong.

Sell the landfill too I guess, that might bring in some money to the county if anybody wants to buy it. Hope whoever buys it is responsible about what gets dumped in the landfill and buried... Since state and federal regulations apply to the landfill, probably they will be responsible, but you want to get rid of that too...
  
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Jeff
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #77 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 2:28pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 2:07pm:
Right, they can easily do that.  But that never happens.  Privatization is yet another seemingly good government idea that never worked out



Why do you keep expecting government to act differently than it always has acted?

I don't. Why do you keep imagining that you can make government just go away?

As I said, the federal government stands in the way of many privatization plans. Probably our county landfill has at some time or other been supported by some federal grants, which will have to be paid back if the landfill is sold.

If you have a bad city government, expect them to stand in the way of privatizing anything, and as you mention, they will often try some phony "pilot program" and hire extra bureaucrats to monitor the program, thus making "privatization" cost extra money.

There is nothing at all wrong with the idea of having governments contract out for services that they currently provide with government employees. It's a good idea.

My state DOT has a Driver's License Office in my town that is entirely private. It's owned and operated by a private business out of a privately owned building. You can renew your registration and get license plates there easily and quickly.

I don't have any idea if the state saves any money by doing this (probably) but I do know it is far better than the completely state owned and operated DOT Driver's License Agency in the city just over the county line.

You lose sight of working toward the good or the better by insisting on the perfect.
  
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #78 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 3:54pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 2:11pm:
That's what is called the privatizing of services.

Putting a service up for bids from private contractors, hiring the best one and having them perform the service. No, it's not enabling a free market in garbage collection, but it makes Bob responsible for handling his own employees, who are not government employees, and since Bob want's to make a profit from his contract, he is highly motivated to not have a lot of overhead. (Governments are motivated to have a lot of overhead in the form of both bureaucrats and unionized workers). Bob won't have a supervisor out with each and every work crew like you see with city maintenance crews. Bob won't have a special driver to take his employees to their garbage trucks trucks at the start of the day and return them to their cars at the end of the day.

There are significant savings that can be realized.


Well let's say "could be realized," in that it's strictly hypothetical since you have no examples of that potential being actualized.  While, under the libertarian method of government enabling private business (enabling meaning to simply get out of the way) the savings are guaranteed. 

Quote:
The county I live in runs a landfill. Private contractors can use it (are supposed to use it) and they pay to use it. The town I live in provides garbage collection by contracting with a private business. If you live in the county, but not in town, you can take your trash to a collection site or to the landfill. Some things you might want to take to the landfill will incur a charge. It works pretty well and doesn't cost much for anybody. Nobody seems interested in starting up a business to provide garbage collection throughout the county...


Of course they don't.  For the same reason that nobody seems interested in starting a low-cost private school right next to a public school:  government is already providing that service, no matter poorly, and they are charging taxes that individuals could otherwise use to pay for the superior private service.

Quote:
I understand you want to get the town and county governments out of the business completely. Go to government meetings and try to stir up support. Write editorials. Post your ideas for completely private trash collection and disposal on social media. I think you won't find much support, but I could be wrong.


No, you are right.  People love to get "free" stuff so they will vote for the government to keep "giving" them trash collection services. 

Quote:
Sell the landfill too I guess, that might bring in some money to the county if anybody wants to buy it. Hope whoever buys it is responsible about what gets dumped in the landfill and buried... Since state and federal regulations apply to the landfill, probably they will be responsible, but you want to get rid of that too...


I sure do.  There is heavy regulation of the waste disposal industry.  Which makes it ripe for criminals to exploit.  Waste hauling is the ideal enterprise for those willing to ignore the law.  Charge customers for the cost of hauling away their waste plus the costs of complying with all the regulations.  Then don't comply with the regulations, dumb the waste the cheapest way possible.  Who would complain?  The customers won't.  They don't care what you do with their waste as long as they never see it again.  The government?  How difficult do you think it is to bribe a bureaucrat in charge of waste management regulations?  Not exactly an A-list slot, huh?


  

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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #79 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 4:16pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
Well let's say "could be realized," in that it's strictly hypothetical since you have no examples of that potential being actualized.
If you hire Bob's Waste Management and Welding, LLC to handle your town's waste, you have eliminated full time government garbage collectors, and you won't need any of the management level bureaucrats who were "monitoring" them.

Here's how it works. The people who Bob is serving with trash collection monitor Bob's employee's work.  If their trash isn't picked up, they know it pretty quickly.

Part of the contract the town has with Bob is a performance clause that says he can be fired for non-performance. Another part requires Bob to provide roll-out bins and clearly mark them on all sides with his company's name and phone number, so when any of his employees screw up, people call him.

If Bob doesn't take care of the problem, people start calling the town manager's office. When the town manager's in-box is full of complaints about Bob, she calls Bob and mentions the non-performance clause if necessary...

See? No bureaucrats needed.

Expect big savings and better service.

If this isn't what happened, if your town created a new Dept. of Monitoring Trash Collection by Private Companies, you obviously need better town government and should probably be looking for other ways they are robbing you.

Make it go away and start over, right Sack?


  
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