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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education (Read 828 times)
Jeff
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #80 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 4:29pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 3:54pm:
No, you are right.  People love to get "free" stuff so they will vote for the government to keep "giving" them trash collection services. 




I didn't say that.

I'm saying that if the government rigs the "test" so that privatizing services is made to seem more expensive (or less reliable or both) then people will not be motivated to try to save money on trash collection. You and the city government are both saying it's not possible. Who could argue with that, when a mind scientist agrees with the city government?

In fact, it's something people don't often think about that I know of unless the trash doesn't get collected.

You need to convince your government that they better start saving money, and that privatizing services is a good way to do it.
  
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #81 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 10:23am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 4:29pm:
I didn't say that.

I'm saying that if the government rigs the "test" so that privatizing services is made to seem more expensive (or less reliable or both) then people will not be motivated to try to save money on trash collection. You and the city government are both saying it's not possible. Who could argue with that, when a mind scientist agrees with the city government?

In fact, it's something people don't often think about that I know of unless the trash doesn't get collected.

You need to convince your government that they better start saving money, and that privatizing services is a good way to do it.


I can't convince them of that; no one can.  Those bureaucrats are parasites.  You can't convince parasites to drain less resources from their host.  The don't even understand that kind of talk. 

I've worked in government for many years.  They never ever talk about saving the taxpayers' money.  They only talk about spending all of this year's money so it doesn't get cut next year.


  

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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #82 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 10:41am
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 10:23am:
I can't convince them of that; no one can.  Those bureaucrats are parasites.  You can't convince parasites to drain less resources from their host.  The don't even understand that kind of talk. 

I've worked in government for many years.  They never ever talk about saving the taxpayers' money.  They only talk about spending all of this year's money so it doesn't get cut next year.


Here's an overview of what can be done and has been done-

https://reason.org/policy-brief/local-government-privatization-101/
  
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #83 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 11:19am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 10:41am:
Here's an overview of what can be done and has been done-

https://reason.org/policy-brief/local-government-privatization-101/


I skimmed your article and it was as expected.  Here is where the logical flaw in it is exposed:

Quote:
In the 21st century, government’s role is evolving from service provider to that of a provider or broker of services,


A broker of services is like Hotels.com or Orbit.com that connects consumer clients with provider clients to offer consumers the best deals it can find them and providers the most customers it can find them. 

If Orbit.com followed the government model, it would force everyone to pay for a government airline whether they had any interest in flying or not and then later claim it was saving everyone money by allowing Delta and Southwest a chance to bid for the contract to fly people to destinations they don't want to go to.

The way for government to make sure services are provided in the most cost-effective way is to get out of those services and let the free market determine the price of those services.

EDIT:

While I was skimming, I was looking in particular for the part showing how much money local governments have actually  saved through this so-called "privatization."  Did I miss it?



  

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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #84 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 12:22pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 11:19am:
I skimmed your article and it was as expected.  Here is where the logical flaw in it is exposed:


A broker of services is like Hotels.com or Orbit.com that connects consumer clients with provider clients to offer consumers the best deals it can find them and providers the most customers it can find them. 

If Orbit.com followed the government model, it would force everyone to pay for a government airline whether they had any interest in flying or not and then later claim it was saving everyone money by allowing Delta and Southwest a chance to bid for the contract to fly people to destinations they don't want to go to.

The way for government to make sure services are provided in the most cost-effective way is to get out of those services and let the free market determine the price of those services.

EDIT:

While I was skimming, I was looking in particular for the part showing how much money local governments have actually  saved through this so-called "privatization."  Did I miss it?



Competitive bidding for the desired services does lower the costs and improve the service. How many landfills do you want competing for customers? There's only one landfill in my county, but people are free to go to the next county and use that countiy's landfill for a fee.

How do you imagine that there could be competing sanitary sewer companies within a city?

Not every service that government provides lends itself to competition between private companies, but savings can be realized by contracting out for a private company to operate the sewage treatment plant.

As in my, "here's how it works" example, you no longer have full time garbage men on the city payroll so you no longer have to pay someone to manage their health insurance and pension plans, and you don't have to pay for those plans... And you no longer pay the garbage men. The city can sell it's garbage trucks and doesn't have to maintain them any longer, so staff can be reduced at the city maintenance facility. Any city bureaucracy devoted to garbage collection can be eliminated.

Bob's Waste Management and Welding, LLC is motivated to be lean and efficient. The city system that provided the same service was motivated to pad it's staff and create new bureaucratic positions.

You can't see an opportunity to save money for the city taxpayers here? If it doesn't happen, the city government is robbing you.

Edit: "Numerous studies have shown privatization saves taxpayers 10 to 25 percent on average, while also delivering more efficient, responsive government." A quote from this article-

https://reason.org/policy-brief/cleveland-ten-privatization/

Edit: Another quote from the same article-

"Competition for solid waste collection services in Charlotte, North Carolina produced $14 million in cost savings over the first five years of the program."
  
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #85 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 12:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 12:22pm:
Competitive bidding for the desired services does lower the costs and improve the service. How many landfills do you want competing for customers? There's only one landfill in my county, but people are free to go to the next county and use that countiy's landfill for a fee.

How do you imagine that there could be competing sanitary sewer companies within a city?

Not every service that government provides lends itself to competition between private companies, but savings can be realized by contracting out for a private company to operate the sewage treatment plant.

As in my, "here's how it works" example, you no longer have full time garbage men on the city payroll so you no longer have to pay someone to manage their health insurance and pension plans, and you don't have to pay for those plans... And you no longer pay the garbage men. The city can sell it's garbage trucks and doesn't have to maintain them any longer, so staff can be reduced at the city maintenance facility. Any city bureaucracy devoted to garbage collection can be eliminated.

Bob's Waste Management and Welding, LLC is motivated to be lean and efficient. The city system that provided the same service was motivated to pad it's staff and create new bureaucratic positions.

You can't see an opportunity to save money for the city taxpayers here? If it doesn't happen, the city government is robbing you.

Edit: "Numerous studies have shown privatization saves taxpayers 10 to 25 percent on average, while also delivering more efficient, responsive government." A quote from this article-

https://reason.org/policy-brief/cleveland-ten-privatization/


Until you come up with concrete examples of government provided services being cheaper than allowing the free market to provide them and that savings being the result of “privatization,” i.e. contracting companies to act in the government’s stead, I can’t really take seriously your claim that it saves money.

As to sewage, waste disposal of any kind can be done privately.  Piping waste away to treatment plants is a government idea that started with community septic pools.  But private individuals can indeed take care of that without government as I do with my backyard septic tank and as people on the frontier did with outhouses.

If government wants to provide sewage services, let them.  Just don’t force me to pay for it when I already have that taken care of.  Charge a fee for the service so the user pays, not “everyone.”  Your wanting something for free doesn’t morally obligate me to pay for it no matter how many other people in your trailer part vote to use my money to provide you a free connection to the county waste treatment plant.
  

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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #86 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 12:56pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 12:32pm:
Until you come up with concrete examples of government provided services being cheaper than allowing the free market to provide them and that savings being the result of “privatization,” i.e. contracting companies to act in the government’s stead, I can’t really take seriously your claim that it saves money.


Take it up with the Reason Foundation, it's them claiming that numerous studies show significant savings.
  
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #87 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 1:02pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 12:32pm:
As to sewage, waste disposal of any kind can be done privately.  Piping waste away to treatment plants is a government idea that started with community septic pools.  But private individuals can indeed take care of that without government as I do with my backyard septic tank and as people on the frontier did with outhouses.
As I mentioned, too many outhouses in too close proximity will pollute the groundwater.

How many neighborhoods on Manhattan Island do you think have large enough yards for septic fields? Do you know the factors that must be accounted for in designing septic fields? How about for large apartment buildings? Care to guess how large a septic field you need (even in ideal soil) for a 20 family apartment building? Do you think the properties of the soil on Manhattan Island are suitable for septic fields? Do you know anything at all about what you are talking about?


  
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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #88 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 6:54pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 1:02pm:
As I mentioned, too many outhouses in too close proximity will pollute the groundwater.

How many neighborhoods on Manhattan Island do you think have large enough yards for septic fields? Do you know the factors that must be accounted for in designing septic fields? How about for large apartment buildings? Care to guess how large a septic field you need (even in ideal soil) for a 20 family apartment building? Do you think the properties of the soil on Manhattan Island are suitable for septic fields? Do you know anything at all about what you are talking about?




Sounds like sewage is a service that is highly in demand then. 

Exactly what the competitive free market is so good at providing.

But, I know how much you like free stuff.
  

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Re: Growing Support for Funding Health Care The Way we Fund Education
Reply #89 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 7:18pm
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Snarky Sack wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 6:54pm:
Sounds like sewage is a service that is highly in demand then. 

Exactly what the competitive free market is so good at providing.

But, I know how much you like free stuff.
There are miles and miles of very old sanitary sewers under most of our cities. It's not likely anyone will want to buy them.

Sewage treatment plants are highly regulated by states and the feds, and it is required that licensed people operate them. There are lots of liability issues if you screw up and pollute the neighboring stream or river. It's unlikely that anyone would want to buy them. Locating a new sewage treatment plant is limited to certain areas that are lower than the city they serve and there are lots of regulatory hoops to jump through before you can get approval to build one, which makes them very expensive to build.

To build an new treatment plant to compete with existing treatment plants means you have to run new sewers to the new plant.

I don't think it's a good opportunity to make money at all.

Money can be saved by putting the operation of the treatment plant up for competitive bidding and not having city employees run it.

Likewise for sewer maintenance and repair.

Nobody wants to buy the old sewer system or try to build a new one under an existing city, but private contractors will bid competitively to maintain them, so you can save money by eliminating the Public Works employees that currently repair and maintain sewers.
  
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